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#1615525 - 02/08/11 06:09 PM The King's Speech  
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loveschopintoomuch Offline
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Sorry if this topic has been previously posted.

I just saw the movie The King's Speech. Absolutely magnificient and I highly recommend it.

But what I thought was a bit ironic (if that is the correct word for this)...near the end of the movie, as the new king is giving his speech to the English people, telling them of the unavoidable war with Germany and asking them to be brave and be ready to meet the challenge, etc., the background music was Beethoven's 7th Symphony. Through my tears (yeah, I did get a bit emotional), I had to smile knowing that Beethoven was, IMO, the most famous German of all. I wonder if the people who were responsible for chosing the music for this film had ever given this a thought. No matter...the music, so amazing, fit the scene beautifully.

Kathleen


After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
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#1615543 - 02/08/11 06:28 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Columbia/Westchester Counties ...
The king's great-grandmother--Queen Victoria--was German, too.

#1615544 - 02/08/11 06:30 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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He was Belgian...


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
#1615563 - 02/08/11 06:49 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Sorry, dolce sfogato, but Ludwig was born in Bonn, Germany.

Kathleen


After playing Chopin, I feel as if I had been weeping over sins that I had never committed, and mourning over tragedies that were not my own." Oscar Wilde, 1891
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#1615564 - 02/08/11 06:50 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: dolce sfogato]  
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A wonderful film.

Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
He was Belgian...

???

#1615565 - 02/08/11 06:52 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: dolce sfogato]  
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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
He was Belgian...


By descent, but not nationality.

#1615644 - 02/08/11 08:55 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: Copake]  
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Originally Posted by Copake
The king's great-grandmother--Queen Victoria--was German, too.


A bit indirectly.

But his great grandfather Albert, on the other hand, WAS German.

#1615659 - 02/08/11 09:14 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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It was a perfect piece of music and was immediately followed by the Emperor concerto. I'm sure that Alexandre Desplat understood the irony but whether that was a deliberate action to add irony there is an interesting question.

I read somewhere (have no idea whether it's true) that Beethoven 7 was used during therapy sessions in the same way you see the Mozart used earlier.


  • Debussy - Le Petit Nègre, L. 114
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

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#1615674 - 02/08/11 09:36 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Well, allied soldiers in WWII were quite accustomed to hearing a well-known German-composed piece whose first four notes in morse code are ...

dot dot dot dash!

V for Victory.


#1615709 - 02/08/11 10:18 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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King George VI reigned from 11 December 1936 – 6 February 1952
after Edward VIII had abdicated to marry Mrs. Wallis Simpson.

Having lived through the period as the Hun (Churchill lingo)
was rolled back to Berlin in 1945... the bold Theme of
Beethoven’s Emperor Concerto was a rallying call .
It matched the Morse “V for Victory” ... dot.dot.dot.dash .

Can still remember newspaper pictures of King George VI
announcing the end of WWII from the balcony of Buckingham Palace ... as I remember, he was accompanied by the Queen
and Princess Elizabeth (present Queen E2) and Princess Margaret.
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#1615730 - 02/08/11 10:38 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Kathleen, I have no doubt that you enjoyed the film. It is very moving in its own way and very flattering to the British, but it is mostly a gross falsification. The irony of using Beethoven's music was not lost on me.

A recent review in Slate confirmed my fears of such a film as this winning an Oscar.

The private letters and diaries of the royal family demonstrate a continued, consistent allegiance to the policy of appeasement and to the personality of Chamberlain. King George's forbidding mother wrote to him, exasperated that more people in the House of Commons had not cheered the sellout. The king himself, even after the Nazi armies had struck deep north into Scandinavia and clear across the low countries to France, did not wish to accept Chamberlain's resignation. He "told him how grossly unfairly he had been treated, and that I was genuinely sorry." Discussing a successor, the king wrote that "I, of course, suggested [Lord] Halifax." It was explained to him that this arch-appeaser would not do and that anyway a wartime coalition could hardly be led by an unelected member of the House of Lords. Unimpressed, the king told his diary that he couldn't get used to the idea of Churchill as prime minister and had greeted the defeated Halifax to tell him that he wished he had been chosen instead. All this can easily be known by anybody willing to do some elementary research.

Then more damningly:

In a few months, the British royal family will be yet again rebranded and relaunched in the panoply of a wedding. Terms like "national unity" and "people's monarchy" will be freely flung around. Almost the entire moral capital of this rather odd little German dynasty is invested in the post-fabricated myth of its participation in "Britain's finest hour." In fact, had it been up to them, the finest hour would never have taken place. So this is not a detail but a major desecration of the historical record—now apparently gliding unopposed toward a baptism by Oscar.


Jason
#1615737 - 02/08/11 10:53 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: argerichfan]  
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
Kathleen, I have no doubt that you enjoyed the film. It is very moving in its own way and very flattering to the British, but it is mostly a gross falsification. The irony of using Beethoven's music was not lost on me.


Bah humbug. There were a lot of people in England at the time who chose to ignore the coming tide, rather than wade out to it. Reading a biography of Churchill during this time makes it seem he was waging a one-man campaign against apathy and apeasement. That doesn't change the film and it would be a worthy Oscar winner.


  • Debussy - Le Petit Nègre, L. 114
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

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#1615755 - 02/08/11 11:15 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: Andy Platt]  
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Originally Posted by Andy Platt
Reading a biography of Churchill during this time makes it seem he was waging a one-man campaign against apathy and appeasement.

Again from Slate:

In point of fact, Churchill was—for as long as he dared—a consistent friend of conceited, spoiled, Hitler-sympathizing Edward VIII. And he allowed his romantic attachment to this gargoyle to do great damage to the very dearly bought coalition of forces that was evolving to oppose Nazism and appeasement. Churchill probably has no more hagiographic chronicler than William Manchester, but if you look up the relevant pages of The Last Lion, you will find that the historian virtually gives up on his hero for an entire chapter.

You can read the whole article here:

http://www.slate.com/id/2282194

Take it up with Slate if it upsets you, or just ignore it. But don't bother me with it. Having been raised in the UK I know a fair amount about British history, and -sorry to say- I think the Slate review is accurate.

There are also other areas of the film -not covered in the Slate review- which I also find problematic, i.e. no reference to the -contrary to Anglicanism- religious beliefs of Lionel Logue.


Jason
#1615798 - 02/09/11 12:17 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Young fan is trying to bend history ... but what a load of bunkum ... such unbridled republican drivel about the British monarchy deserves a swift broadside with all guns blazing ...
being totally inconsistent with the facts .

Imagine fan bleating this rot

“Almost the entire moral capital of this rather odd little German dynasty is invested in the post-fabricated myth of its participation in "Britain's finest hour."

Forgetting that “this rather odd little German dynasty” has reigned for 300 years

George I ( House of Hanover)
George II
George III
George IV
William IV
Victoria
Edward VII (House of Saxe-Coburg)
George V (House of Windsor)
Edward VIII
George VI
Elizabeth II

Enough for now ... before reloading with another wilting load of shrapnel aimed at the republican twit.

BTW King George’s “forbidding mother” looked like this
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#1615811 - 02/09/11 12:40 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: Piano*Dad]  
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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Well, allied soldiers in WWII were quite accustomed to hearing a well-known German-composed piece whose first four notes in morse code are ...


A German resistance group in Hamburg began from listening to BBC German-speaking broadcasts which always began with the first four notes of Beethoven's 5th which represented the morse code for V, Victory. Helmuth Hubener formed this group after getting access to a short wave radio, and he eventually posted anti-Hitler flyers in the city using news from these broadcasts.

#1615819 - 02/09/11 01:02 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Steady boys, the crusty btb is launching an offensive!

Welcome to call me 'republican', just don't call me 'Republican'!

What a sorry lineup. George I couldn't speak English (nor seemed to have any intelligence), George II was continually constipated, George III (well, we know about that one), George IV was too fat, even if Brighton Pavilion is worth a visit, William IV was at best interim, Victoria was a prude, Edward VII an empty-headed bon vivant, George V sold out his cousin Nicholas II and screwed up at Versailles, Edward VIII was a playboy, George VI an appeaser, Elizabeth... well, she's 'nice'. (What's not to like?)

Hopefully Prince Charles will take a hike and let Prince William of Wales take over. Perhaps he might make a better case for an increasingly decrepit and pointless monarchy.

Since emigrating to the US last year, there is a lot about England I do not miss, and there is a lot about America I find bothersome (particularly the Republicans), but perhaps I'm just too young to really have much sentiment for a monarchy which seems to have less relevance with every year. But it's good for tourism.


Jason
#1615864 - 02/09/11 03:23 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Well, well ... the congregation has finally got tired of fan’s churchy bad notes ... and banished him to the furthest American colonies.

What a sorry load of republican codswallop by the ingrate

George I couldn't speak English (nor seemed to have any intelligence),
... because he was German ... Handel wrote Water Music
George II was continually constipated
... perhaps needed more fibre in his diet ...
the last British monarch to lead an army in battle at Dettingen in 1743.
George III (well, we know about that one) ...
born in Britain and spoke English as his first language ... Nelson defeated the French/Spanish forces at the Battle of the Nile and Trafalgar ... defeat of Napoleon at Battle of Waterloo
George IV was too fat, even if Brighton Pavilion is worth a visit
instrumental in the foundation of the National Gallery and King’s College London..
William IV was at best interim
His reign saw several reforms: the poor law was updated, child labour restricted, slavery abolished in nearly all the British Empire
Victoria was a prude
Reigned for 63 years ... Her reign is known as the Victorian era and was a period of industrial, cultural, political, scientific, and military progress within the United Kingdom.
Edward VII an empty-headed bon vivant
Edward played a role in the modernisation of the British Home Fleet, the reform of the Army Medical Services.
George V sold out his cousin Nicholas II and screwed up at Versailles
In 1931, the Statute of Westminster recognised the dominions of the empire as separate, independent kingdoms within the Commonwealth of Nations.
Edward VIII was a playboy
Rather than give up Mrs. Simpson, Edward chose to abdicate.
George VI an appeaser
three years after his accession, his realms, except the Irish Free State, were at war with Germany.
Elizabeth II ... well, she's 'nice'. (What's not to like?)
2nd longest reigning British Monarch at 57 years , outdistancing Elizabeth I and close to Queen Victoria at 63 years.
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#1615881 - 02/09/11 04:32 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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The day war was declared my teacher was visiting Myra Hess. How about that one!


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#1615890 - 02/09/11 05:18 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Nice googling btb. Unfortunately, 63 years is longer than 57.

#1615954 - 02/09/11 08:17 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Another patriot Debrucey ... thanks for the correction to the timelines ... EII could still top the poll (that's if the likes of fan don't ferment a Republic) ... I was in London at the time of the coronation and seem to remember either in 1953 or was it 1956 that two Scottish students pinched the Stone of Scone from the ceremonial Coronation Chair ... but was later returned.

But how does this grip you chaps ... The Republic of Great Britain (ouch!! shudder the thought).

Hope to wave a Union Jack for King William V.

#1615957 - 02/09/11 08:30 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Quote
such unbridled republican drivel


Huh? I guess you don't really know Hitch very well. But you don't seem to need to know much before you go off half cocked.

Heck, I thought the King's wishy-washy attitude toward Nazi Germany, and his disapproval of Churchill, was common knowledge.

#1615962 - 02/09/11 08:49 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Originally Posted by loveschopintoomuch
But what I thought was a bit ironic (if that is the correct word for this)...near the end of the movie, as the new king is giving his speech to the English people, telling them of the unavoidable war with Germany and asking them to be brave and be ready to meet the challenge, etc., the background music was Beethoven's 7th Symphony.


yes i caught that too, but it reminded me that in "the art of the piano" there was a segment on dame myra hess playing beethoven for the british troops. and great music SHOULD transcend politics.

#1616018 - 02/09/11 10:18 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: debrucey]  
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Originally Posted by debrucey
Nice googling btb.

Certainly nice 'selective' googling.


Jason
#1616020 - 02/09/11 10:20 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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He don't google too good.


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#1616033 - 02/09/11 10:37 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Do es anyone think, like i do, that acting is ione of the most overrated jobs in the world? i mean, being a good actor is tough, but acting like most hollywood actors or actresses do looks just easy?

#1616039 - 02/09/11 10:41 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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If anybody makes anything look easy they're working quite hard (as Mozart once said 'I do my practicing at home).


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#1616046 - 02/09/11 10:50 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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In response to the original post, pointing out the irony of a German-born composer's music playing at this particular part of an English film:

I suppose they could have put on some Elgar or something similar, but, really...so what?

Knowing what we know about Beethoven's politics, does anyone doubt if Ludwig saw what was happening in Germany in the 1930s, he would have sided with England?



Hank Drake

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#1616067 - 02/09/11 11:29 AM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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I am far from being a patriot.

#1616103 - 02/09/11 12:25 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: btb]  
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Originally Posted by btb

Longest reigning British Monarch at 57 years , outdistancing Queens Victoria and Elizabeth I.



That is interesting as Britain has never had a Queen Elizabeth the first.


Music was my refuge. I could crawl into the space between the notes and curl my back to loneliness.
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#1616118 - 02/09/11 12:42 PM Re: The King's Speech [Re: loveschopintoomuch]  
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Anyhoo, I'd rather hear Beethoven's music used in The King's Speech than in A Clockwork Orange. wink


Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell
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