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Hi Chris and JW
Thanks for clarifying and for your interesting responses. I started improvising 6 weeks ago and will continue practising with the arpeggios, approach notes etc. One day I will eventually get to the stage where my fingers simply obey the tune my brain wants me to play.

Cus,

There's no need to master the 2-5-1, or you'll spend your life on it. You just want to feel pretty good about it.
We'll want to spend as much time on the minor 25 as we did on the major 25. It's equally important. Just let me know when you're done with the last 6 keys and we'll move on.

++

haha you're funny !

Good for you!
Great to have started on a journey of discovery, and thanks for your persistent questions, you have inspired me to think a little more about what I do.
Thinking about it today, I think that to be able to understand a tune's Key centres is important to coming to grips with a structure that you can base an improvisation on.
Take a tune a find the II-V-I's, then, take one II-V-I and "fool" around with that, then the next, etc.

Me too. It does happen sometimes but not consistently.

Ok, it's on the birthday list.

Hi Chris
Thanks for your encouragement ! I appreciate it must be a challenge when a performer tries to put himself in a beginner's shoes so that he can address the beginner's basic questions.
The key centre approach is kind of global isn't it ? Yesterday I worked on ii V I in C# major, and it was much easier for me to think of just the one scale C# major, than thinking "This bar is Ebmin7, the Eb min blues scale will sound nice. Now the Ab7 bar is suddenly upon me, what is the Ab7 lydian dominant scale ?" !

Hi 10
That's cool that you are hearing the tunes in your head. How long have you been improvising ?

Well it's one reason why I enjoy teaching, questions make me think - and learn.
Yes, key centre is a global approach, it's definitely central to nearly all western music.
Let's take ATTYA, how many key centres (using our terminology) are there in ATTYA?
The song has a fundamental key: Ab-major, but what about the others?

Mmmm, well Chris, I have to admit I don't really know ATTYA.

Do you mind if I try All of Me ?

All of Me has a fundamental key: C major. The beginning of the A section and the whole of C section are in the key centre of C.

However, the key centres modulate here:
In A section, last few measures are D min.
In B section, key centres are A min and G maj.

Cheers
cus

From my book at home: (A) section:
|Cmaj|xxx|E7|xxx|
A7|xxx|Dmin|xxx|
E7|xxx|Am|xxx|
D7|xxx|Dm7|G7|

C fundamental
E7 is the V of A
A7 is the V of D (or here: D minor)
E7 is the V of A (or here: A minor)
Am-D7 is the II-V of G
Dm7-G7: II-V of C

after the a mediant jump to E (which I always feel is slightly corny, but I do love ) its a Cycle of Fifths (sort of) back to C. (there's some other stuff going on; parallel tonics, etc
(and if you want to 'think' slightly more modern chord changes; take a II before the V's in the song).

Have a listen fo Sinatra and Nelson Riddle's arr, subtle chord substitutions galore!

Hi custard, I joined this thread in May 2009, I suppose that's almost two years ago now. I couldn't say I've been consistently working at it though. I've had time off for other schemes like classical music, and learning guitar.

I have come to a point though that I can play without being told which note to play, I suppose I can noodle. At first I couldn't. That has to be progress.

But I do hear things in my head that I can't get my fingers around to. I do remember at one point I was having dreams about melodic lines, and guess what? By morning I'd forgotten them!

Right now I'm on a 3-pronged approach.

1 - listen. I really don't know most of the music jazz is based on. If I don't know the tune, the chord progression means nothing. So I'm just trying over time, so get better acquainted with the repertoire.

2 - some pieces I work on with the help of a friend/mentor.

3 - scales. I have a long way to go here. It's not just scales but trying to get comfortable playing certain things in all keys, and trying to switch happily, for example, between c blues and c maj blues. Funnily enough I'm also on a role with the major scale on guitar, and on guitar I'm at about the same level in terms of getting myself to play the note I hear and want to play.

So that's my story up to now. How about you?

Hey 10
I'm like you. I do a lot of listening to get acquainted with the repertoire. I only got into listening to jazz 2 years ago; when I heard Keith Jarrett's Tokyo album, I was hooked.
At the moment I'm singing Charlie Parker and John Coltrane.

I took 3 months of lessons with a jazz teacher who taught me harmony and scales, but never mentioned swing. So I stopped with him and started the JOI methodology which got me into living, breathing and thinking jazz.

You mentioned the C Blues and the C maj blues. What's the difference ?

That's great that you know another instrument.

Chris
Are you saying that in Section A alone, you have a few key centres ? Or are you treating G etc. as just a variant of C ?

Thanks for the cool Frank Sinatra version. I also like the Sarah Vaughan albeit simpler version.

I was practicing Very Early tonight which is a very difficult Jazz tune (along the difficulty level of Giant Steps), and I was thinking of how to make the solo sound more melodic.

So I started focusing on approaching thirds (of chords) just like we discussed here. And almost immediately the solo sounded much better.

I'm telling you guys that some of the stuf I've discussed here (and refined over time) is still the same story. Approaching thirds should be mastered FIRST. This is Jazz 101.

Thinking all other levels like scales and modes are interesting for later but if you can't automatically find those thirds, it will not sound good.

ii-V-I's practice. Is thinking thirds part of this picture?

Yes to "a few key centres".

OK Chris, I hadn't thought of it that way before.

It's one way that I like to use to get a hold on a songs/tunes harmonic structure.

It kinda gets detailed though doesn't it ? Like big picture is "Think of A section as C major" but with your multi key centre approach, one also has to understand A, D min and A min.

hi jazzwee,

when you say "4. Target Approach to Third from some other chord tone (1, 5, 7). Two eighth notes. Put third on a downbeat." how many notes do I play alltogether, 2 or 3? If 2, do I just play to 8th notes per chord or should I target the third with a chord town and then let the third ring?