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#1614590 - 02/07/11 12:53 PM Another Chopin 10/1 Thread  
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Not very comfortable in that other thread (it seems to have an opinion you've got to supply complete performance vids). Here is the first two sections using a Chopin technique. Before decrying my attempt stop and think - how well would Chopin have pulled it off? The ease of this way is refreshing, in fact it's all subtle hand/wrist caressing at even slower tempo. Souplesse, souplesse!


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#1614592 - 02/07/11 12:56 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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I would say that that, is most like the way my teacher wants me to play the piece.


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#1614596 - 02/07/11 12:59 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Very rare teacher then - watch this space!


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#1614600 - 02/07/11 01:02 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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It looks fine to me.
I have no idea what you mean about "this way," nor what might be controversial about it, nor what you mean by "using a Chopin technique." It just looks like fine playing to me. I imagine other 'ways' would too.

And of course please don't refer me back to the other threads. I'm just saying. smile

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#1614603 - 02/07/11 01:06 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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And what's the tempo marking in the original score?


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#1614605 - 02/07/11 01:07 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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The complaints I'm expecting are about 'floppy' wrists, but to flick up on the up accents and down on the down there is no alternative - and that is Chopin technique.


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#1614619 - 02/07/11 01:29 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: Palindrome]  
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Originally Posted by Palindrome
And what's the tempo marking in the original score?
You think Chopin wouldn't have managed it?


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#1614626 - 02/07/11 01:39 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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kbk, thanks for video. It would be nice though (as it is still an open request on the other thread) to actually slow it down like to 60-70 and also show a view more from the top. Also no pedal.

I don't have a problem accenting though I don't see my hands/wrist making a terribly big motion and I'm able to reach this tempo (in parts).

If I'm to make an observation on what I see different from what I have come up with, you seem to do it with flatter fingers. There appears to be more wrist sideways motion (can't be sure because of the camera angle), and you don't play higher up the black keys, particularly on F major (bar 3). I don't notice much rotation either. There also seems to be more forward/backward motion than I probably do.

If any of my observations match what you do, perhaps you can explain what you are doing a little more. I came up with my own method from my own trial and error so I expect to do more of it.

The hurdle I expect to have for myself is to reach the written tempo of 176. That's not happening anytime soon but doing it consistently at 140 or so seems a reasonable target for me.


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#1614633 - 02/07/11 01:46 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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I don't think I do any rotation. I'm using a push in with the arm (flick) though the only evidence is the wrist going up. I don't think there's time for rotation - it would involve supinating and releasing for every accent. Flicking uses gravity (oh dear, I'll hate myself for bringing that word up) to get the wrist back down so only really involves effort in getting the wrist up. Seymore Fink has a good illustration of in-with-the-elbow on his DVD. I'll try and do a slower over head one if it helps. I wouldn't start setting up hurdles!


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#1614656 - 02/07/11 02:27 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Here ya go Jazz, to order - only one splash! Quite interesting actually. You may have to watch on youtube if it isn't clear.


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#1614662 - 02/07/11 02:33 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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No I don't notice much rotation but I was referring to sideways wrist motion. Is that what you call ulnar deviation? Do you do a lot of that?

I worked to figure out how to reduce that thinking that extra motion might be a strain but it appears (can't be certain) that you do that movement that I worried myself about. My solution was to play some notes higher up the key (closer to the fallboard). The problem is more obvious to me when played very slowly.

As far as the wrist going up too much or not, it's hard to tell for me because the natural change in handshape from stretched to closed would make the wrist appear to go up and down.

It's the in/out motion that was more noticeable. Now what are "flicking" exactly. The accents?



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#1614666 - 02/07/11 02:41 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
No I don't notice much rotation but I was referring to sideways wrist motion. Is that what you call ulnar deviation? Do you do a lot of that?


It's the in/out motion that was more noticeable. Now what are "flicking" exactly. The accents?
Yes, ulnar and radial deviation not rotation -that uses the door knob turning muscle. The flick is an in with the elbow which brings about an up from the wrist. It's the third way to bring about key depression - first being scratch/grip and second being drop/flop (which is what I do on the accents on the way down.


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#1614674 - 02/07/11 02:46 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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So ulnar/radial deviation is not a bad thing? I presume Ulnar is when the RH fingers move to the right? That's the movement I was worried about.

And when are you consciously doing the flicks here? The accent (finger 5) as you already said is the down. Do you flick starting at finger 2 and also at 3/4?


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#1614681 - 02/07/11 02:50 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Ulnar/radial deviation in passing is fine; playing with either fixed is poor technique. All the flicks are done by the elbow using finger 5 on the rising arpeggio accents.


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#1614716 - 02/07/11 03:47 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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if I watch my hands while I play it makes me nauseous, seriously.... but I can tell you that I hold my hand and wrist higher on the way down. I think my fingers are a bit more arched.

thanks for showing your video



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#1614755 - 02/07/11 04:56 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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I tried the "flicks".

A little different feel since there's more in/out motion. I now realized that I was doing rotation on 5 before.

I'm not sure why it's called a flick but basically I move the elbow in. Seems natural enough since the 5th is shorter.

Now I presume that N.'s way may be to pull in using finger 5 (or 3/4) and an inactive elbow.

Your way is a more active elbow.

I get the differences now in seemingly 3 variations in the approach (rotation, finger, flick). Can't tell yet what feels better but rotation seems to have more brilliance. Thoughts?




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#1614757 - 02/07/11 05:01 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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I'm unclear what you mean by rotation. It's a flick in the sense of the tiddly winks movement. Your finger goes down but the wrist goes up - a little counter-intuition there.


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#1614765 - 02/07/11 05:10 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
I'm unclear what you mean by rotation. It's a flick in the sense of the tiddly winks movement. Your finger goes down but the wrist goes up - a little counter-intuition there.


What I was doing originally was rotation, though not that much. I think I understand what rotation is (turning the door knob). I was doing it on finger 5.

Your way does not involve rotation, I can see that. But thinking about it for a moment, it felt more jerky, because of the abrubt flicking of 5. Perhaps that's more of a practice of creating a rounded motion. I just tried it for a few minutes so it's a cursory look.

I just want to make sure I understand it completely.



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#1614769 - 02/07/11 05:14 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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OK, we do understand rotation. Jerkiness will happen unless your wrist is 100% relaxed - that's maybe the big skill.


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#1614772 - 02/07/11 05:21 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
The complaints I'm expecting are about 'floppy' wrists, but to flick up on the up accents and down on the down there is no alternative - and that is Chopin technique.


I don't have any particular complaint with wrist movements- provided that the fingers are both stable on the keys and active in sounding them. However, I do have a complaint with any claim that there is no alternative.

The problem is that your film shows a great deal of uneveness both tonally and rhythmically in many areas. I don't think that makes a very good advert for what you say about the arm. At times virtually all notes but the accented ones are scarcely even audible. This is a classic symptom, when trying to use arm movements as a replacement for adequate finger activation- rather than to complement it. If this happens in practise tempo what happens when you go up to something resembling a performance speed? Despite the slow tempo, we hear a truly substantial emergency slowing for the cadence back to C. I'd be especially interested to see the results of such motions in the countless bars of equivalent difficulty within the middle section- particularly at a faster tempo.

#1614774 - 02/07/11 05:23 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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You're really helping me with terminology smile thumb It makes these explanations understandable.

Now what exactly is the problem with rotation on ascending figures? Kreisler's video example of Paul Barton shows that he used rotation. JAP said he used rotation.


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#1614776 - 02/07/11 05:24 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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i'm not really sure about the technique argument, but you may want to read your score more carefully. if im not mistaken at the very beginning when the left hand is holding an f#, beat four of that measure should be a D instead of an E.
just thought id mention that smile


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#1614777 - 02/07/11 05:24 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Rotate (supinate) your hand by 5 degrees - does it come bouncing back?


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#1614784 - 02/07/11 05:32 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Here ya go Jazz, to order - only one splash! Quite interesting actually. You may have to watch on youtube if it isn't clear.


Apparently, I missed this. You snuck it there so fast smile

So I can see now that you have a lot of radial/ulnar deviation. I was surprised at how much of it was occurring on the way down. That part to me was almostly completely linear and just a matter of opening the hand (stretch) and then contracting into a ball. I apparently did it like Garrick Ohlsson described.

I didn't see the video of him until after I figured out my own way.

Your way, the hand doesn't contract into a smaller shape but relies more on radial/ulnar deviation.

Do you disagree with Ohlsson's approach?


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#1614785 - 02/07/11 05:34 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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It appears to me, Klutz, that you are executing a rotation.

What you describe above, the finger going down while the wrist goes up, strikes me as succinctly defining rotation unless you are playing repeatedly the same note.


#1614787 - 02/07/11 05:36 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Rotate (supinate) your hand by 5 degrees - does it come bouncing back?


Is this meant for me? What has to bounce back? The counter-rotation force would be to land back on 1.

Bad thing? Good thing? Not sure what you're asking.


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#1614788 - 02/07/11 05:36 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Maybe you'd need a bird's eye view of his playing to know what he's doing. Can you not see plenty of opening and closing of the hand in mine? Ulnar/radial deviation and opening/closing of the hand are not mutually exclusive.


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#1614789 - 02/07/11 05:38 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Rotate (supinate) your hand by 5 degrees - does it come bouncing back?


Is this meant for me? What has to bounce back? The counter-rotation force would be to land back on 1.

Bad thing? Good thing? Not sure what you're asking.
I'm saying it doesn't bounce back, because you've pronated in the first place whereas flicking will bounce back.


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#1614792 - 02/07/11 05:41 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: keyboardklutz]  
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Terminology check here. What is the context of the "bounce back". You just introduced it all of a sudden.

Why is a bounce important? Is this bounce a lateral motion or forward/backward motion?


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#1614793 - 02/07/11 05:42 PM Re: Another Chopin 10/1 Thread [Re: jazzwee]  
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Originally Posted by jazzwee
Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Rotate (supinate) your hand by 5 degrees - does it come bouncing back?


Is this meant for me? What has to bounce back? The counter-rotation force would be to land back on 1.



That's where the problem lies. Rock back onto the heavy thumb on what would logically be the softest note of each 4 bar group? Sounds very hard to control. I don't see how collapsing sideways onto the fifth would justify the need to deal with that problem.

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