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Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? #1613921 02/06/11 02:03 PM
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rysowers Offline OP
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I came across a DISCUSSION on another piano forum about tuning. This caught my eye:
Quote
The top of the line YAMAHA digital grand piano is tuned using Young-Vellotti (not sure of spelling) and meant for piano concerts.

Quote
Both of you are correct. The full grand Yamahas are tuned using Young temperament for that exact reason. So is the high end digital CP5 and P95.


I have never heard this, and I have a hard time believing it. Could this be true?

Last edited by rysowers; 02/06/11 02:03 PM.

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Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: rysowers] #1614015 02/06/11 04:48 PM
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'Sounds a little odd, but since it isn't a piano with actual strings, they could play with the scale and call it anything they liked. Googling "Young Vellotti" returns your post, Ryan, and nothing else.


David L. Jenson
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Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: David Jenson] #1614046 02/06/11 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by David Jenson
'Sounds a little odd, but since it isn't a piano with actual strings, they could play with the scale and call it anything they liked. Googling "Young Vellotti" returns your post, Ryan, and nothing else.

His name is "Vallotti".

Kees

Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: rysowers] #1614081 02/06/11 06:18 PM
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pppat Offline
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Originally Posted by rysowers

I have never heard this, and I have a hard time believing it. Could this be true?


No, it's definitely not true. The high-end Yamaha digitals have provided alternative temperaments for some time already, but it is always the same bundle

1 = Equal Temperament
2 = Pure (Major)
3 = Pure (Minor)
4 = Pythagorean
5 = Meantone
6 = Werckmeister
7 = Kirnberger

With ET being the default. This is also true for CP5 and its "brother" CP1.

Here is a page from Yamahas FAQ on the CP family, which confirms the above.

Yamaha CP series FAQ

The P95 doesn't have temperament options, it uses only ET (with a pretty conservative stretch), as does all the other digitals from Yamaha.


Patrick Wingren, RPT
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Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: rysowers] #1614120 02/06/11 07:08 PM
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Hi Patrick.....ET is the only temperament I have available on my high-end digital Yamaha Disklavier, DGT211XG...I wish it did have the ability to add temperaments! ....it was made in 2005. Here are some examples of it's temperament from my thread, "My piano in EBVT III" ..and some comparison files in EBVT III.

1. Diminished Chords in ET on my Yamaha Digital Disklavier, p/b Patrick Wingren. http://www.box.net/shared/kusmk5take

2. 4 Diminished chords-Transposed in EBVT III played by Patrick on the Mason Hamlin RBB 7-2-2010.mp3 http://www.box.net/shared/5dhsvufjge

3. 4 Diminshed Chords Transposed No 2 in EBVT III played by Patrick on a 1925 Mason Hamlin RBB recorded 7-2-2010.mp3 http://www.box.net/shared/9gh67aqris

Here is an excellent example of the differences between Yamaha's ET on my digital disklavier and the EBVT III non-equal temperament of Bill Bremmer's played by Bill on my M&H RBB.

http://www.box.net/shared/3vu81t3f21




Last edited by Grandpianoman; 02/06/11 07:24 PM.
Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: rysowers] #1618665 02/13/11 01:14 AM
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beethoven986 Offline
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There is a piano lab with Clavinovas where I did my undergrad. You can change the temperament on them, but default is ET.

Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: rysowers] #1619412 02/13/11 10:46 PM
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Bill Bremmer RPT Offline
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The selection offered by Yamaha seems to have done by people who don't like the idea at all, don't really have any experience with non-equal temperaments (they tell you to look up information in your favorite book) and fully expect that after you have run your experiment, will never try THAT again! In their minds, there are reasons that ET is considered standard and would be the default temperament, so they let you find out for yourself just why that is. It is a great example of, if you don't know what you're doing, choose the default setting and don't even try to mess around with anything else.

A better idea would be to allow the user to enter temperament offsets they may have found in their favorite book or from other sources.

The Vallotti-Young idea is a valid one but since the two people named probably never met, it is safe to say that it is a composite idea that was certainly possible and that someone along the way may surely have tried but something that "everyone was doing" at any particular time.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
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Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: Bill Bremmer RPT] #1619419 02/13/11 11:17 PM
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Jake Jackson Offline
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Some of the newest Yamaha, Roland, and Kawai digitals let you tune each note and store the tuning. I agree that the older ones don't seem to have spent much time on including the pre-equal temps, though.

Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: rysowers] #1619441 02/13/11 11:52 PM
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There are a lot of musicians and listeners that couldn't hear the differance between one temperament and another if their life depended on it. They would probably feel the same way about paying for something with this as a non smoker does, paying for car that comes with an ashtray. It will never get used and there is this lingering feeling you paid for something you didn't want. The market will determine what bells and whistles they attach to these and Yamaha does understand its potential market very well from its track record. If they find a cheap way to add it and there is a significant demand for it, rest assured they will eventually do it.


Piano Technician
George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: Jake Jackson] #1619453 02/14/11 12:34 AM
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For at least 6 years, it has been possible to set your own temperament on Clavinova. The ones I've seen, anyway.

Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: rysowers] #2803057 01/17/19 09:41 AM
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Compare the attitude that talks down unequal temperaments with some tuners that dismiss the Aliquot strings in the treble section of (some ) Bluthners. Probably the tuners who don`t bother with those extra resonating strings do not play a piano .They would be as seriously convinced those strings are a waste of time and would firmly put you in your place if you asked about them .
While we are here look up Thomas Young who was a recognised Genius . Valotti is still a stranger to me so I will need to check him out myself . I think he wore a wig but don`t hold that against him .

Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: rysowers] #2803062 01/17/19 09:47 AM
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Compare the attitude that talks down unequal temperaments with some tuners that dismiss the Aliquot strings in the treble section of (some ) Bluthners. Probably the tuners who don`t bother with those extra resonating strings do not play a piano .They would be as seriously convinced those strings are a waste of time and would firmly put you in your place if you asked about them .
While we are here look up Thomas Young who was a recognised Genius . Valotti is still a stranger to me so I will need to check him out myself . I think he wore a wig but don`t hold that against him .
Francesco Antonio Valotti . No wig in the sketch as he was a Francican monk and later a priest in Padua . died early 1700s . Worked with another musician called Tartini .(Never heard of him ?)

Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: rysowers] #2803072 01/17/19 10:11 AM
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A Vallotti variant tuning is used by most HIP chamber orchestras around the world. It is considered to be among the finest UTs.

Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: Emmery] #2803077 01/17/19 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Emmery
There are a lot of musicians and listeners that couldn't hear the differance between one temperament and another if their life depended on it.

This could be true.

What is also true is that very young kids, with just few hours of musical education in total, can easily discern between simple intervals played with equal-temperament vs. just intonation. I observed this myself several times when playing with kids on their newly acquired low-end digital instrument.

My current conjecture is that it is the currently prevailing musical education that causes that loss of the ability to hear differences between various temperaments.

Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: 90125] #2803080 01/17/19 10:41 AM
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90125. You are absolutely correct. Aural pitch based sense is an acquired skill and easily learned. Sadly, once learned, the distressing awfulness of Equal Temperament, with its pervasive jangly thirds, intrudes on the music being made by great artists. It is so much nicer to hear the occasional, even more jangly thirds appropriately used, as so many composers did, to create tension as a piece modulates through several keys.

Tension/Relaxation That's what music is all about. We can never get away from the tension in ET, so we learn to ignore it and look for other ways to sense relaxation or resolution.

Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: rysowers] #2803095 01/17/19 11:11 AM
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One of the glaring musical weaknesses of UT's is it reduces the tension difference between the major and minor of the central key centers. ET makes this change dramatic with the wide major thirds/sixths and the narrow minor thirds/sixths. ET allows much more dramatic key center modulation and deceptive resolutions. This adds much drama by expanding the tension and resolution possibilities.

I know some people prefer the Ut's and I don't begrudge them their findings, I just prefer the "feel" of ET, it is more powerful.

Last edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT; 01/17/19 11:12 AM. Reason: typos again

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Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT] #2803105 01/17/19 11:30 AM
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The world is not confined to solo piano music.

I think the part you are missing is that historically, orchestras played in (and modern HIP do) essentially Just Intonation chordal intervals and Pythagorian melodic intervals, with the open strings forcing a compromise to hold them to a reference pitch. Theorbos, lutes and gambas were most often tuned in a meantone matched to the keyboard with which they were a part of the continuo. (There are some split fretted instruments allowing for non-beating intervals even in a sort of meantone).

The Bach gamba sonatas played this way with an organ appropriately tempered has no match in ET. String players generally tune their thirds, sixths, both major and minor, and other intervals as pure beatless intervals. Mozart even goes so far, in some pieces, as to leave out the offensive keyboard thirds in a work for keyboard and string so that the string player can tune that third beatless.

I mentioned in another thread that solo pianists and those playing concerti now can play with HIP orchestras using an appropraitely tempered piano. The Polish November Chopin Competition was held and performed on period intruments with a period orchestra.

Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: prout] #2803110 01/17/19 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by prout
The world is not confined to solo piano music.


Bite your tongue! smile

For that matter, the world is not confined to people who can discern the differences between different temperaments. Or who can hold a pitch close enough for those differences to be discerned.


Semipro Tech
Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: BDB] #2803115 01/17/19 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB
Originally Posted by prout
The world is not confined to solo piano music.


Bite your tongue! smile

For that matter, the world is not confined to people who can discern the differences between different temperaments. Or who can hold a pitch close enough for those differences to be discerned.

This is all correct. And yet... we, or I at least, revel in the pulled pitches and unusual blues scales of the great jazz singers and saxophonists. And, I would guess that the vast majority of jazz lovers not only hear those temperament differences but revel in them. And I bet, you are one of them.

Re: Non-equal temperament on high-end Yamaha digital pianos? [Re: prout] #2803122 01/17/19 12:22 PM
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Those are not temperament differences; they are just differences in pitch. The world does not divide pitches into temperaments.


Semipro Tech
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