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I have an 8 year old student who has had 6 months of lessons. She is very enthusiastic about lessons, yet cries easily. She has worked hard and recently started PA 2A. The problem is that sometimes she needs to work on rhythm...and needs another week with a piece.

When I tell her to count she refuses to count out loud. So we shake the rhythm separately from playing it. (She has gotten to tears in previous lessons, and her mother said this happens at school.) If I do not check off a piece that has been assigned, she gets all choked up and begs for one more time to play it.

After her last lesson I explained to child and parent that pieces may need more than 1 week of work now that pieces are not as simple. (I went ahead and put checks on two pieces I wanted her to review, in order to prevent a crying episode. Instead I just told her, I'm checking these off but I want you to review them.)

Any suggestions about how to get a child to slow down and do it right? Any way to explain that more time is needed, accurate counting is needed, but it's not a failure for the child? Really, this child works.

It's probably time to get out some rhythm cards and let her know she must count out loud.

It's also occurred to me to assign a piece and write:
correct notes
correct timing
dynamics (etc.)
I'm thinking that this way she could get one or two checks along with an assignment being repeated.

Any suggestions?

As I look over my post, I see that the crying is manipulative. I don't want to let this be a case of the tail wagging the dog.

So I will insist that she count audibly (especially where needed). She'll say "Do I HAVE to?" and make a big deal out of it. But I'll have to just say "Yes". And slow down as much as it takes.

Ann, many and perhaps most students come to lessons with the public school model of learning in their heads. You do a problem, you move onto the next one; you read a chapter, you move on to the next chapter. Creative arts and motor skill development doesn't happen that way. Very early on, we must introduce the student to the concept of continual refinement. I shudder when a student suggests he's finished up a piece. Oh, really? You've achieved musical perfection? Well, let me engage a concert hall.

Normally, I will play the piece back to the student mimicking their performance, then play it again this time with some musicality. We discuss the two, what was different, how to improve the first example to make it more like the second. Refinement takes time and focus and hearing. Even students who are in the earliest stages of learning can still hear differences and can begin the process of learning how to refine their performances from week to week.

Thanks John! The word "refinement" will be useful. I'll let the child and parent know we will be continually refining pieces. "Refinement takes time and focus and hearing". I've got that written down so I'll know what to say next time.

It also occurred to me to let this child know that we will pick one or two pieces each week for refinement. In other words she can know that no matter what, we will be choosing some pieces to stay with longer than a week.

It will be so much better to say we are refining a piece, instead of reviewing.

I have a student very much like this and even in PA 2A. She understands that she's working on harder pieces and that they should take more time. She is a perfectionist and will sometimes have melt-downs. The latest episode came as a result of her knowing that it sounded bad, but also realizing that she didn't practice the way I instructed to make it sound good. She is a perfectionist and I think this is where she's hitting a road block.

It was at that point that I told her I'd make a bargain. If she promised to practice everything the way I suggested (including every day for at least 45 minutes, counting out loud, etc.), and if she came into her lesson the following week and couldn't play better, then I would call myself a "bad teacher." I get along very well with this child and she enjoys her lessons, so I know it's not something that she would go out of her way to be deceptive to prove me wrong. Anyways, she kind of giggled at that and said, "Really? You'd say you're a bad teacher if I don't improve with practicing every day and counting out loud?" She left agreeing to do that. The following week, when she walked in the door I asked her if I was a bad teacher and she laughed and said, "No, I really think I did well this week." Her pieces were much, much more prepared, and she was much more confident.

This past week, she practiced as she was told, and then I challenged her to try to play "Funny Event" hands together (which she had learned hands separately). She hemmed and hawed and tried everything she could to get out of it, but she finally gave in when I said, "Either you do it now when I'm here to help you with any problems, or you do it at home alone when no one is there to help." She finally sat down and tried. I pointed out to her that whatever the LH does, the RH copies an octave higher. To her amazement, she was able to get through the song with very little difficulty. She even said that this song would be easy to memorize, because she'd only have to memorize 8 measures due to the RH copying and the repeated material. She left saying it was her best lesson yet.

I think it's important to understand if the crying comes from trying to manipulate you, or from disappointment in themselves for not being able to do it, or thinking they're not able.

Counting out loud can be really difficult. I mean, really difficult.

We've discussed this point here before. I absolutely agree!

Morodiene, thanks for sharing your creativity in teaching!

Yes, on second thought the crying is not out of an intention to manipulate a situation. I expect it comes from a sense of personal failure when perfection is not reached. Still, I want to be careful not to let the crying keep me from doing what I think is best for the student, even when she doesn't like it.

Maybe I'll switch to Ta Ta (quarters) and tiki tiki (8th). Does that seem to help anyone count? Easier than 1 2 3 4 and (etc.)?

I may have missed some of the counting discussions. Sorry if it's a repeat for some of you.

Yes, counting is hard for everyone. Some have more trouble with it than others, but in the past I've tried to use different methods and they're all still as hard. I have arrived at a point where I feel that even if they don't practice counting out loud all the time, they know enough to be able to identify what the rhythmic value is and understand the relationships between the notes.

So in the end they walk away with the ability to learn a rhythm. It is a constant struggle but one that I feel is very important to address. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be learned and attempted.

Ann, I use the tiki ta ta method with my very young students and it works well for rhythm issues. As soon as they start to get it, I begin mixing in counting with numbers, first, just the length of the note, then measure counts (1-2-3-4, etc.)

I do, too.

I almost always use the ta method as well, but I had a college student for whom nothing worked until she said "walk" for quarters and "quick step" for 8ths.

From the beginning, I tell students that most pieces take several weeks to learn well. Or I just keep assigning the piece. When it is done well, I ask them to sign their name on it. Then they must review it for one more week. They know the pattern. I haven't gotten any complaints because they almost always have one new piece, two medium pieces and one old piece. You might also tell her that because it was so good, you will want to hear it again the following week. Perhaps you could record it for her.

I use ta for quarter notes, ta ya for half notes, ta teh for eighth notes, ta yateh for dotted quarter/eighth note combinations (in Christmas music mainly).

Thanks everyone for the ideas. I haven't used the tiki ta ta method before, but I think I'll try it.

IMO students think it is so uncool to count out loud...it's embarrassing for them. Maybe they think it's baby stuff. If only I could make counting seem cool. Surely they can at least count aloud as we tap out the rhythm.

With this child counting is a problem now that 8th notes have been introduced. I may suggest "Coke" (quarters) and "Pepsi" (8ths) and see how she responds to that. And eventually returning to 1 2 3 4.

Candywoman I love your idea of having students sign a piece when it is played well and then having it assigned for one more week.

Confessions of an incompetent learner here: I am often unable to count aloud while playing. Of course after I learn the rhythm I can do it, but when trying to learn the rhythm and trying to count out loud I get completely stuck, unable to play notes or say numbers. This situation is of course, highly uncool.

What about asking the student to count with you while you play?

Malkin is not alone. It's not just a matter of being cool. Hang around the ABF for a while and at least once a fortnight you will see a thread along these lines:

My teacher wants me to count out loud while I play. I just can't do it. My brain goes numb, or I count and my fingers seize up. I feel so stupid. It's really embarrassing.

Or:

Is it really necessary to count out loud while playing? I find this so difficult. Everything works fine until I open my mouth.

You won't find it difficult, Ann, because you are a seasoned musician. But most students find this very challenging.

Today I talked to an 8 year old (not the child who cries) letting him know I would like him to refine a piece. I'll have to work on the speech I gave. Because when I finished explaining, the boy muttered "That's just a fancy way to say fail".

I had to laugh. I did my best. I'll still have to work on it.

Absolutely not! I would have been tempted to reply something like: If you think a piece is perfect just because you can play the right notes at the right time, then I've failed as a teacher, because I haven't taught you to listen to your music. Another possible answer (all depends on student's personality, of course) is: Music isn't math. There is no right answer, just better and better answers, and you only get those through continued work and refinement. That's the big difference between art and science.

I'll bet some of the other teachers can come up with some other catchy retorts for you.

Yes, after I laughed I continued explaining about art...that I continue to work on pieces even after getting the notes and timing...to get them better and better etc. Can't recall exactly what I said, but it went fairly well.

Later this week when I bring up continued refining, I'll start with the comparison of school work (right/wrong) and art/musicality (continued refinement).

Listening to the music, getting better and better. I'll have to emphasize this.