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Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary] #1612690
02/04/11 03:17 PM
02/04/11 03:17 PM
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Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline
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Gadzar:

There is one thing that the outside M6 inside M3 test has that no others have. An aug4 interval. It can check halfway around the circle of fifths. And yes, it does not point out one particular note being wrong. A number of notes may be wrong, and it may not be apparent with individual checks.


Jeff Deutschle
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Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Loren D] #1612696
02/04/11 03:25 PM
02/04/11 03:25 PM
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UnrightTooner Offline
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Originally Posted by Loren D
Why start with a C fork and hope A4 ends up at 440 when that A is the critical standard? Why not set A at 440 and temper from there? I'll never figure that one out.


I have wondered the same thing and have tried some different theoretical sequences. But considering that very few pianos have F3 on the bass bridge, but many have E3 on the bass bridge, F3-F4 seems the best temperament octave. This means that either A#3 or C4 would be the best place to start so that SBIs can be used to define the temperament octave. Of the two, C4 is the obvious choice, unless perhaps you want to tip your hat to John Phillips Souza! I’d rather tip my hat to Dr. White and use a C-fork. Besides, the temperature and humidity of the room will change where A4 ends up much more than starting on C will, unless you do not tune ET.


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Silverwood Pianos] #1612699
02/04/11 03:36 PM
02/04/11 03:36 PM
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ivorycanary Offline OP
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Gadzar:

I guess it is a good thing that Tea Girl just prefers 4ths and 5ths and hears them better than RBIs, not that she cannot hear RBIs


I don't intend to not hear 3rds well forever... haha crazy

It's just that the sequences I have (from the Potter course) involve tuning A4-A3, then immediately A3-F3, then usually a C# gets involved.. when I can't hear the 3rds as well as 4ths, to build the temperament off the 3rds made no sense to me. I knew there was another way and then Dan mentioned the Braid White sequence so I was looking for input!

And to space out a bit.. I just plain love the sounds of 4ths and 5ths. I love playing them and listening to them and trying to get them just so. Maybe it's a result of a Jazz background grin but they make me happy.

Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos

Tea Girl!
That’s funny…you are still doing that high tea gig? Leigh and I will drop by when we are over there.
Should be around Easter or so……

Too bad you did not ask me about this at the seminar..


Please do drop by high tea! Maybe I can treat you and Leigh, as a thank-you for your seminar.

I must admit, temperament tuning was not on my brain last weekend, it (my brain) was filled with hide glue shocked and felts! There was just so much information there that I have about 6 pages of typewritten notes! It wasn't until I came home and spent 2 days practicing that I came to the conclusion of what might work best for me. I still have a whole list of questions that I haven't asked yet. There is just so much to learn.

Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary] #1612732
02/04/11 04:44 PM
02/04/11 04:44 PM
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Vancouver B. C. Canada
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Originally Posted by Tea Girl

There is just so much to learn.

A truism for any trade or profession, and life in general.


Dan Silverwood
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Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: UnrightTooner] #1612776
02/04/11 06:32 PM
02/04/11 06:32 PM
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Loren D Offline
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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by Loren D
Why start with a C fork and hope A4 ends up at 440 when that A is the critical standard? Why not set A at 440 and temper from there? I'll never figure that one out.


I have wondered the same thing and have tried some different theoretical sequences. But considering that very few pianos have F3 on the bass bridge, but many have E3 on the bass bridge, F3-F4 seems the best temperament octave. This means that either A#3 or C4 would be the best place to start so that SBIs can be used to define the temperament octave. Of the two, C4 is the obvious choice, unless perhaps you want to tip your hat to John Phillips Souza! I’d rather tip my hat to Dr. White and use a C-fork. Besides, the temperature and humidity of the room will change where A4 ends up much more than starting on C will, unless you do not tune ET.


I probably didn't explain right. My temperament octave IS F3-F4. But I start from an A4 reference. A4 to the fork, A3 to A4, and then a 4th's-5th's as stated above starting with A3, with the final note being D4 to G3. I then test that D against A4.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary] #1612845
02/04/11 08:40 PM
02/04/11 08:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Mexico City
The sequence I prefer is the Sanderson-Baldassin.

Here you first set the tempering of M3s and then you find the correct tempering of the 4ths, to complete the nine notes mini temperament. Nothing in this sequence is arbitrarilly set, but you have to find out the right amount of tempering of 3rds and 4ths within the octave.



Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Eric Gloo] #1612847
02/04/11 08:43 PM
02/04/11 08:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 81
ivorycanary Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Eric Gloo
Originally Posted by Loren D
I use 4ths and 5ths but start with A4.

A4 to 440 fork.
A3 to A4
E4 to A3
B3 to E4
F#3 to B3
C#4 to F#3
G#3 to C#4
D#4 to G#3
A#3 to D#4
F4 to A#3
F3 to F4


I like not dealing with G3, C4 or D4...probably makes for a much faster tuning. smirk


So Loren, I would guess that the rest of your sequence is as follows?

C4 to F3
G3 to C4
D4 to G3?

Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary] #1612865
02/04/11 09:12 PM
02/04/11 09:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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UnrightTooner,

It is already difficult to tune accurately A4 from an A4 fork, most procedures use F2 or B1 as a test note to accurately set the fundamental of A4 at exactly the same frequence of the fork.

But having A4 at 440 hz, when this note is not even tuned in your sequence seems to be impossible. In your sequence you tune all the notes from F3 to G4.

G#4 and A4 are not yet tuned, so I don't know from which note(s) you tune A4, maybe from A3, D4 and E4, anyway there are little chances that it falls exactly at 440 hz, it will depend mostly on the iH of the particular piano you are tuning.

By using a C5 fork, even the tuning of C4 is compromised!

So, in your sequence, not even a single note is accurately tuned to a given standard. The only thing you are sure is that 2nd partial of C4 is tuned at a C5 fork frequence, so the fundamental of C4, whatever it might be, will change from a piano to another due to differents amounts of iH.




Last edited by Gadzar; 02/04/11 09:14 PM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Silverwood Pianos] #1612867
02/04/11 09:14 PM
02/04/11 09:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,613
Strong, Maine
David Jenson Offline
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Strong, Maine
Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted by Tea Girl

There is just so much to learn.

A truism for any trade or profession, and life in general.
It all takes time, and there's nothing like having years of experience behind you ... eventually. ;-)


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary] #1612878
02/04/11 09:50 PM
02/04/11 09:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,628
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Loren D Offline
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PA
Originally Posted by Tea Girl
Originally Posted by Eric Gloo
Originally Posted by Loren D
I use 4ths and 5ths but start with A4.

A4 to 440 fork.
A3 to A4
E4 to A3
B3 to E4
F#3 to B3
C#4 to F#3
G#3 to C#4
D#4 to G#3
A#3 to D#4
F4 to A#3
F3 to F4


I like not dealing with G3, C4 or D4...probably makes for a much faster tuning. smirk


So Loren, I would guess that the rest of your sequence is as follows?

C4 to F3
G3 to C4
D4 to G3?


Yup, that's it!


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Gadzar] #1612891
02/04/11 10:06 PM
02/04/11 10:06 PM
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Loren D Offline
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Originally Posted by Gadzar


It is already difficult to tune accurately A4 from an A4 fork




Huh? Maybe for you it is, but not for me. I might add that tuners have tuned A4 from A440 forks for decades with no problem. Why do you say it's difficult?


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Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary] #1612898
02/04/11 10:33 PM
02/04/11 10:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,758
Mexico City
Gadzar Offline
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Gadzar  Offline
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For instance two problems come to my mind:

1. I always say that piano tuners should be provided with 3 hands, instead of only two.

That is: one hand to sound and hold the tuning fork near the ear, the second hand to play the piano key A4 and the third hand to move the tuning hammer.

Some tuners use the left hand to sound and hold the fork against the keyslip of the piano while they play the key of A4 and use the right hand to move the tuning hammer and tune the A4 string.

Some use to hold the fork with their teeth, etc.

Others, me included, use to hear at the fork directly by approaching it to the ear, in the air, and compare the beat rate between the F2 note and the fork, memorizing it, and then hearing the beats between the F2 note and the A4 note, and tune A4 to have the same beat rate.

Anyway it is not an easy task.

2. The temperature of the fork may rise while you hold it in your hand, changing its pitch and falsing your tuning.


As you know the tuning of A4 is reserved a special point in the tuning exam of PTG and 5 minutes are allowed to do this!

That is why I can not believe UnrightTooner getting an accurate A4 at 440 hz, by tuning C4 from a C5 fork and then not including A4 in his tuning sequence for setting the temperament octave!


Last edited by Gadzar; 02/04/11 10:37 PM.

Rafael Melo
Piano Technician
rafaelmelo@afinacionpianos.com.mx

Serving Mexico City and suburbs.

http://www.afinacionpianos.com.mx
Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary] #1613056
02/05/11 09:11 AM
02/05/11 09:11 AM
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Ah. I hold the fork between the knuckles of my index and second fingers after striking; this way I can hold it to the bottom of the keybed underneath the piano while playing A4 with my thumb and manipulating the lever with my right hand. Easy as pie. smile


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Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary] #1613057
02/05/11 09:11 AM
02/05/11 09:11 AM
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Loren D Offline
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But then again, exactly how easy is pie? smile


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Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary] #1613098
02/05/11 11:10 AM
02/05/11 11:10 AM
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Vancouver B. C. Canada
Silverwood Pianos Offline
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Pastry, fruit, and a hot oven for a hour…... Sounds pretty simple to me.
Then after a period of testing pies, you can become a Registered Pie Technician……….for myself I keep failing the tests so I have to eat pie after pie after pie....


Dan Silverwood
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Silverwood Pianos] #1613102
02/05/11 11:21 AM
02/05/11 11:21 AM
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Loren D Offline
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LOL Registered Pie Technician...RPT...I like it! smile


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Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: Loren D] #1613155
02/05/11 12:44 PM
02/05/11 12:44 PM
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ivorycanary Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Loren D
Ah. I hold the fork between the knuckles of my index and second fingers after striking; this way I can hold it to the bottom of the keybed underneath the piano while playing A4 with my thumb and manipulating the lever with my right hand. Easy as pie. smile

That's helpful! I've seen people make it look so easy. blush

Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary] #1613164
02/05/11 12:54 PM
02/05/11 12:54 PM
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Jerry Groot RPT Offline
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When tuning aurally, I start with C-4 an then tune F-3-F-4 in the temperament. I love using the checks of 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 10ths. It makes life a ton easier me thinks.

Loren, I don't have any pies. Not even donuts!! But, I do have Popsicle's, does this count??? smile



Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary] #1613367
02/05/11 06:15 PM
02/05/11 06:15 PM
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Marietta, GA
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OHHHHH another Popsicle fanatic?


Les Koltvedt
Servicing the Greater Atlanta Area.
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Re: 4ths and 5ths, I love 'em [Re: ivorycanary] #1613372
02/05/11 06:20 PM
02/05/11 06:20 PM
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Grand Rapids Michigan
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I love um! [Linked Image]



Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
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