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I have an early 1900s grand piano that I am rebuilding slowly. We are having a great time working on this ourselves and want the finished outcome to be something we are proud of. That said, we don't want to spend thousands of dollars on this when we could just buy a new piano. We want to replace the hammers with something that is not considered lowest end nor highest end. We've come across some called New Octave Global hammers. Does anyone have any experience with these? How do they compare with others, for instance? Appreciate any input you might have

Hammers affect the outcome of the job greatly, and is not the place to save a $100 or so.

For a vintage grand, you would probably be best served with Isaac or Ronsen hammers.

Good luck with your project.

Steve

Thanks so much for your response! I know that those hammers are great but considering what we have currently any hammer would be an improvement lol. We are just trying to get the piano back to a usable state as it is currently, virtually unusable. The price difference between cadenza hammers and new octave global is more accurately said to be one-third of the price and while we want someday in the future to make that happen, currently it is not an option. Have you any dealings with the new octave hammers?

I have a piano rebuilding friend who really likes these hammers.

I believe that New Octave Global hammers are made by Imadagawa, but I could be wrong on that. Anyways, they are decent hammers but are considered harder and brighter then the other hammers mentioned, so may need to be voiced down to get a pleasant tone. At $164 they are hard to beat.

International Piano Supply's prices are as close to wholesale as anything I've seen on the net.

My mistake! New Octave Global hammers are NOT made by Imadagawa. Here is a email I just received from the company president:



I'm curious where these hammers are actually made. I'm hoping Mr. Lange will get back to me soon.

If you're not familiar with the brands of hammers, Reece, I hope you're aware of how difficult a job it is to replace hammers.

First, the selection of hammers impacts touchweight significantly, as well as tone. With a 5:1 leverage ratio, an extra gram of hammer weight is felt as five grams at the key.

Next, a great deal of specialized jigs and equipment are necessary to bore, cove, tail, and hang the hammers correctly. It's possible to buy pre-bored hammers in some cases, but you may spend a lot more time traveling and burning shanks as a result.

Last, a full regulation is needed.

Apologies if you're already aware of these implications.

--Cy--

The name Jillian Lange is more likely to be Ms. Lange rather than Mr.....

2 mistakes in one thread?? I'm on a roll!

I've been trying to find out more information about NewOctave Global hammers. The company has been less than forthcoming about their manufacturing.

My best guess at this point, based on their pricing, is that they are coming from China. Their website infers that they are making the hammers themselves. Although I can't be sure, I think their definition of manufacturing is limited to boring and packaging the hammers.

Below are the last email exchanges I had with them. I have yet to hear back from them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for getting back to me about the field trip idea. I had a feeling that there probably isn't much to see.

I am gathering from your response that that NewOctave Global hammers are pressed outside the United States. I would assume that given the price that you are able to sell them for that they are coming from China. This would explain the reluctance to be forthcoming about their manufacturing origin.

I find it troubling that your website infers that you are actually manufacturing the hammers. This seems misleading to me, unless you can tell me definitively that these hammers are made in the US. One of my associates, Ed Howard, of Olympic Piano Rebuilders, Inc. was definitely convinced that you were making the hammers in your own presses here in America.

I would think it would be in your company's best interest to be forthcoming about your products. Boring and packaging a set of hammers does note equate manufacturing them. Chinese products do not carry the stigma that they used to. What makes people irritated is when products are marketed as being European, or American yet they actually come from China. Its the deception that is not appreciated.

So in the effort of not "beating around the bush", can you answer me this quesiton:

Are your hammers pressed in the United States?

Thank you,


Ryan W. Sowers, RPT
Pianova Piano Service
(360) 705-4160
(800) 972-8863
www.pianova.net
experience harmony



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: NewOctave Global Hammers
From: NewOctave Corporation <noc@newoctave.com>
Date: Mon, January 24, 2011 12:45 pm
To: <ryan@pianova.net>

Dear Mr. Sowers,

We greatly appreciate your assertive interest in our products and in particular, how and where our hammers are made. Regretfully, insurance regulations and as important, trade secrets and our methodologies prohibit us from allowing the public (trade-group or otherwise) into our production facilities at this time.

Between our replies to you and that which has been made available on-line, we have nothing further to add. That being said, we have done our best to answer your questions to the extent we can and hope our multiple replies to you thus far will suffice.

Finally, as we do not sell directly to individuals and you seem quite interested in our hammers, may I suggest that you contact one of our distributors who I'm sure would be quite happy to assist you in making purchases, should you be so inclined. You will find a partial listing at our site: www.newoctave.com .

Again, we thank you for contacting us and displaying such a keen interest in our products.

Cordially,

Dennis Arden

U.S. Manufacturers of NewOctave GlobalTM professional quality piano tuning/repair tools, wire, hammers, action parts, damper felt, key tops, wrest planks (pin blocks), action cloth/punchings, center/tuning pins & related products.
Phone: 1-503-338-7425
Shipping/Mailing Address: 88 NewOctave Loop (Bldg. C) , Box 1005
Astoria, Oregon 97103 USA
Skype: newoctavecorp
www.newoctave.com / noc@newoctave.com
Privacy Policy / Product Warranty
Brand products can be found in 115 countries around the world.


At 12:10 AM 1/24/2011, you wrote:
Hello,

I'm still hoping to hear back from your company about your hammer making. Please get back at your earliest convenience. Thank you!


Ryan W. Sowers, RPT
Pianova Piano Service
(360) 705-4160
(800) 972-8863
www.pianova.net
experience harmony

________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________

So does this mean that you have your own hammer press in Astoria and are making them from scratch? If so, I would love to arrange a field trip for the Puget Sound Chapter of the Piano Technicians Guild. We are always looking for interesting piano related activities. It would be a great opportunity to see hammer pressing in action.

All the best,

Ryan Sowers, RPT
President, Puget Sound Chapter
Piano Technicians Guild, Inc.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: NewOctave Global Hammers
From: "NewOctave Corporation" <noc@newoctave.com>
Date: Tue, January 11, 2011 9:59 pm
To: ryan@pianova.net


> Hello, I'm still hoping to hear back about where your
> hammers are manufactured. I look forward to your response.
> Warmest regards,
>
> Ryan W. Sowers, RPT
> Pianova Piano Service(360) 705-4160(800) 972-8863
> www.pianova.netexperience harmony
>

Good evening,

" All NewOctave GlobalTM hammer replacement sets are made
in Astoria, Oregon USA using only the finest German felt &
solid hornbeam mouldings and come to you pre-bored and
ready to install. "

For further details, support or single-set purchase
information, please contact International Piano Supply,
Inc. or visit their website @ see www.pianoparts.com.

Thank you for your inquiry-

Dennis Arden
NewOctave Corporation
88 NewOctave Loop - Bldg. C., Box 1005
Astoria, OR 97103-1005
Phone: 503-338-7425
www.newoctave.com
noc@newoctave.com

There is a legal requirement for saying something is "made in the USA" and it is different from "Assembled in the USA". From their wording in the first email, I would guess that they may be violating these laws if the hammers are only bored and packaged in the US.

I believe they are playing word games.

" All NewOctave GlobalTM hammer replacement sets are made
in Astoria, Oregon USA using only the finest German felt &
solid hornbeam mouldings and come to you pre-bored and
ready to install. "

They claim the "sets" are made in Astoria, not the hammers themselves.

They also print the following:

U.S. Manufacturers of NewOctave GlobalTM professional quality piano tuning/repair tools, wire, hammers, action parts, damper felt, key tops, wrest planks (pin blocks), action cloth/punchings, center/tuning pins & related products.

This would leave one to believe that they are drawing their own wire, making the action parts from scratch, molding their own keytops etc. I am highly skeptical that they are doing any of this. I believe they are mostly a warehouse in Astoria, OR. Since they are close by, I asked if it was possible to visit. "Trade secrets" and "insurance issues" was their reason for declining.

I can't imagine Pianotek, Schaff, or Ronsen not wanting a technician to visit their facility.

Ryan: Relax, relent, let go, remember to breathe! No manufacturer or distributor is under any obligation to answer any questions you put to them - they are not on trial.

If you like a product, buy it and recommend it, if not .... leave it be.

German hammer felt, by the way, has been exported throughout the world for about 100 years, according to the history of the Weickert company (nowadays Wurzen).

I don't think it should matter that they call them "sets". The restrictions apply to the percentage of the manufacturing process that goes into the thing they send you and accept your money for -- whether you call them sets or anything else.

The Wikipedia article on "Made in USA" is interesting. Here is one passage:

"A product that includes foreign components may be called "Assembled in USA" without qualification when its principal assembly takes place in the U.S. and the assembly is substantial. For the "assembly" claim to be valid, the product’s "last substantial transformation" also should have occurred in the U.S. That’s why a "screwdriver" assembly in the U.S. of foreign components into a final product at the end of the manufacturing process doesn’t usually qualify for the "Assembled in USA" claim."

From this, it would seem that the hammer sets shouldn't even be labeled "assembled in the USA", let alone "made in USA". If putting two parts of a screwdriver together doesn't count as the "last substantial transformation", then I doubt that boring and packaging the hammers counts.

According to the rest of the article, the FTC requires that "all or substantially all" of the product is of US origin. I would conclude that New Octave is likely in violation.

It's not just an issue of trust, and with Chinese quality rising, it's not about quality, necessarily, either. But with the US trade deficit as it is, buying products made in the US from time to time is something that is wise and prudent even for the least patriotic of Americans. The meaning of the label should be respected.

Jurgen,

Part of whether or not I like a product depends partly on how much I like the company. You are a perfect example! I love purchasing from you because I trust the quality of your products and I like to support a technician run company.

NewOctave Global on the other hand, appears deceptive to me. Hammer making in the piano world is a big deal. If these folks are claiming to have a hammer pressing operation here in the Pacific Northwest, then I'd like to know about it. The "trade secrets" thing sounds like a joke to me. My hunch is the "secret" part has more to do with deceiving the public than protecting their manufacturing procedures from industry spies.

Flugelbauer is selling their own brand of hammers too, along with shanks and flanges, wippens, etc. John Wilson, however is not trying to deceive technicians into thinking he is making them domestically. He freely admits that they are coming from China. I respect that.

Charles,

I wonder how someone can prove that something is "Made in USA". Unless there are federal or state inspectors going to facilities and looking into whats going on, it seems like its pretty much the honors system.

If NewOctave Global is for real, then I encourage them to get back to me with more information. But so far they have basically told me they have nothing more to say. I'd love to be proved wrong on this, personally. I think their prices for the do-it-yourselfer are unbeatable. I even have a link to their website on my website.

I'm sure it's not an honor system. It's the law. Quoting from Wikipedia again:

"Manufacturers and marketers who choose to make claims about the amount of U.S. content in their products must comply with the FTC’s Made in USA policy.
A Made in USA claim can be expressed (for example, "American-made") or implied. In identifying implied claims, the Commission focuses on the overall impression of the advertising, label, or promotional material. Depending on the context, U.S. symbols or geographic references (for example, U.S. flags, outlines of U.S. maps, or references to U.S. locations of headquarters or factories) may convey a claim of U.S. origin either by themselves, or in conjunction with other phrases or images."

Again, the case with New Octave seems clearly to violate this if the hammers are made in China.

I agree that New Octave seems like a good source for DIYers. I have a tuning hammer from them and I'm quite happy with it. But it's always important for people to stand up for consumer rights. If you don't complain when your rights are violated, they will continue to be violated (as the folks in Egypt are learning).

Laws are generally effective only if they are enforced, especially when it comes to company profits!

According to one article I looked at, the FTC doesn't actually police companies for violations, but rely on consumers tipping them off.

I'd hate to create a stink if it is unwarranted though. Although it sounds like for first time offences it's pretty much a slap on the wrist. If the violation continues then fines and other penalties may come into play.

A few things have made my nose crinkle in regards to them. One is definitely the obfuscation of what exactly they are.

The New Octave site says they don't sell directly to end-users and to buy from one of the above distributors. One of them, International Piano Supply, has the same address as New Octave — same box number, even. Another, KS Piano, is a half-hour drive from the New Octave address and if Google is correct, is run from a double-wide.

pianocastercups.com and jansenpianobenches.com are other seemingly related, nearby companies. I'm down with SEO, but really... what's going on in Oregon and why doesn't anyone up there want to talk about it?!

I understand having multiple business entities, but I don't understand the halfway attempt to make them sort-of appear as unrelated companies. The "above companies are required to maintain minimum stock levels" line under the distributor list is particularly, "duh!" inspiring.

If it's a bunch of entrepreneurial friends that got together and built a multi-faceted group of related companies and are kicking back and getting rich together, I'd love to hear that story!

And no, there is no obligation for a business to divulge this stuff, but when you've got prices that low and can apparently manufacture anything related to pianos in a little town in Oregon — that's just missed PR.

It's a good thing to know your supply chain.

I emailed the New Octave folks and sent them the address of this thread so that they can give their side of the story.

I've been very happy with their prices and almost completely happy with the products (the tuning hammer is great except the finish on the acrylic is chipping off - not really a big deal, for the price). I think the sample hammers I got from them are really nicer than, for example, the typical asian piano hammer. They were only just slightly harder than the Ronsen Weickerts I got and the felt seems to be of good quality.

I agree that the quality seems reasonably good. I can even believe they have a machinist making the tuning levers. But making hammers, and piano wire, and keytops, etc? Give me a break.

Actually, a discount retailer of Chinese piano parts and tools is not such a bad idea. But, again, I wish if this was their game they would come clean.

I hope we hear from them on this thread. They sent me an email when I had mistakenly claimed that I thought the hammers were Imadegawa, so they must be paying a little bit of attention.