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I'm sure the dealers in Singapore would need to survive, and I'm sure I was offered the best deal in Singapore. Don't we all get good deals in sunny Singapore?

Compared to the US prices, my piano model is much cheaper in the States, and this US "price" includes the dealer prep and a master technician visit from Japan plus all the usual service and a looooooonger warranty (ten years FULL warranty in US compared to 1 year FULL warranty Singapore – note that I’m talking about full warranty).

http://www.kawaius-tsd.com/pages/support.html

I have to conclude that the cost of living in Singapore MUST be significantly (way up there) higher than the USA.

That must be it.

So isn't it time to move to the States since the cost of living there is dirt cheap? (reductio ad absurdum) :p

There isn't much that we as piano enthusiasts in Singapore can do. The dealers will continue to do what they've been doing, and we'll just have to live with it. I personally wouldn't move to the U.S. just for the sake of getting better service for my piano.

I really meant it when I said that ignorance is bliss. If you haven't played anything better then what you have will be just fine for you.

As for price vs service level, dealers here in Singapore have to cope with an extremely price sensitive and competitive market.

Just 3 years ago the SK3 was sold at the same price as the C3 Yamaha (SGD $31.5K) in Singapore. That was when WzKit was shopping for his piano …

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,10125.0.html

Pianoheart wrote:

« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2005, 10:49:00 AM »

"By the way, I visited Yamaha's showroom today. I was told that they are going to have a one day only special offer on C3 in September, the price will be very much the same to SK3 (based on what you paid for SK2). So....can anyone advise me if SK-3 and C3 are offered at same price, which piano is more worth the $$$$$?
Many many thanks."

That must be a $15K price increase in 3 years.

And the SK3 was actually compared to the C3. The C3 now is 15K cheaper.

So where is the problem? Is Yamaha C3 priced ridiculously low, or Kawai SK3 being priced ridiculously high in 2008?

FYI, The Yamaha C3 is STILL sold at $31.5K.

So what is the justification for the Kawai dealer in Singapore to jack up the price of pianos >50% in 3 years i.e. from $31K to $46K?

Do I look like I'm an easy target? Perhaps

Maybe the dealer feels that the promotion to Fine's cat 1C is worth the extra premium? :p Dealers can charge what they like, if they feel that the market will bear it. The buyer has free choice, whether to pay the price or walk out the door.

Digitus,

Actually, that IS well said.

I would have WALKED OUT if I had known all these stuff BEFORE I purchased that SK.

If I had only DELAYED my purchased, I would be joining you and Wzkit with a Sauter from Alvin (or a Grotrian from Jason) ... and I have only myself to blame.

Alas, if only I can make space for TWO grands now.

Really ...

If I had only ... ... blah blah blah ... bleh!

So you'd better check if the price of your Kawai from this dealer had been increased >50% in the last three years!

ppp, forget what's happened. At least you still have a nice piano which you can enjoy playing on, and which will only improve over time if you take good care of it. And if it is any consolation, the SKs are still a cut above the Yamaha Cs.

Thanks anyway ... will try to be content with my (overpriced) lot in life then ... until I buy that castle and have space for a truckload of 9' concert grands

... plus an orchestra.

I'm not sure that a SK-3 could have been had for $31.5K in 2005. I was quoted a price (two prices actually!!!) significantly higher than that, but still under $40K. Even with bargaining, I doubt I would have been able to get $31.5K on the price, unless perhaps I am a piano teacher.

In any case, you should expect that prices of all pianos will usually rise over time - that is to be expected. What is more important to me is that you choose a piano that you truly love, AND from a dealer who you can trust to prep the piano to the best of HIS ability. You would probably have to pay somewhat more that kind of service, but honestly, better to be penny wise but pound foolish!

Whenever I spend a lot of money, I always check for forums to get some user feedback on their purchases. Given that a piano purchase is going to last you a good decade or more, it is important that you sort out what you are going to buy. I'm thankful to Kit who lead me to the Sauter brand.

ppp, given that you've already spent the money, its best not to look back. The SK is a very good piano. Just enjoy it. Righfully your dealer should tune the piano after its settled in. Much of the tone will come through only after a year.

Hi peeps. Just join the forum today only. A brief introduction of me. I'm 20 this year so considered a young adult. Glad to see this forum is still growing=) Has anyone bought second-hand pianos at Verve Music School which is located at Ang Mo Kio Central? Are they reliable because they have one second-hand Kawai BS-3A piano at S$3800. Not too sure whether to get it. And i'm not too sure in testing out the pianos as i had no piano lessons at all before. Hehe, maybe someone nice out dere can help me out and will greatly appreciate it=) Also, how you all find hailun pianos and which models would you recommend? Preferred to have a piano with a black ebony polish. My budget would be between S$3500 to S$3800. Right now, i am in a dilemma of getting a brand new piano and a second-hand kawai pianos=(

Hey, no one can be "sure," coz the Kawai dealer will quote you a different price each time you go there (the pianos do not have any displayed prices)

But it was selling close to 31.5K in 2005 according to my research on the WWW.

And that depends on which saleman/woman you get.

That may be true, but only to an extent. Based on my experience at looking at the market over the past few years, it would probably not be realistic to expect to to go for anything close to $31.5K now. Piano prices generally increase over time - the only question is how fast.

And while one person may have been able to get it for $31.5K (perhaps a music teacher?), we can't assume that the majority of buyers could get that price. As you mentioned, there is probably no proper "benchmark" price. To use Fine's formula, or prices quoted in other countries is not likely to be the most accurate comparison either, since overheads in all places is likely to be different.

Basically, it would be difficult to prove that what you paid was 15K above the "usual", since there is no reasonable basis to determine the "usual" price in this case.

Moreover, while every consumer would naturally want the lowest price possible, in my experience, if one pushes the dealer to give the lowest possible price, the dealer could also cut back on service or other "freebies" to make up for the lower profit margin. Of course, that's not to say that those who pay the higher price get better prep as well.

Many a time I have seen those who think they got a great deal (based on a low headline price), but in reality the deal was not so great considering the poor service etc that he/she got. If you think you're the only one complaining, believe me, you are not alone.

Ultimately, its all your down to your own ability to judge the service standards you are provided with, how much you think is a fair price for the dealer, and most importantly the integrity of the dealer.

For myself, I would insist on a high level of prep for my piano, but also recognize that the dealer needs to make a decent margin to survive. So what I would feel most comfortable is not necessarily the cheapest price, but a "fair" price that would help to keep a good dealer in business.

WzKit,

I think I have posted this above:

"I'm sure the dealers in Singapore would need to survive, and I'm sure I was offered the best deal in Singapore. Don't we all get good deals in sunny Singapore?

Compared to the US prices, my piano model is sold much cheaper in the States, and this US "price" includes the dealer prep and a master technician visit from Japan plus all the usual service and a looooooonger warranty (ten years FULL warranty in US compared to 1 year FULL warranty Singapore – note that I’m talking about full warranty).

http://www.kawaius-tsd.com/pages/support.html

I have to conclude that the cost of living in Singapore MUST be significantly (way up there) higher than the USA.

That must be it.

So isn't it time to move to the States since the cost of living there is dirt cheap? (reductio ad absurdum."

So WzKit, I do understand the points you make, but as consumers we can't make sense of this price difference between a newly first-world economy like Singapore, and the high cost of living in the US. I'm not even comparing a first world piano price with that of a third world country like Cambodia.

I can’t make sense of the fact that I’m paying more in Singapore for much less service, full warranty and prep as compared to the States.

So, as I have said, the cost of living in the States (including the "overheads" you mentioned) must be significantly LOWER than Singapore. But I'm not convinced - we're not toddlers, you see.

Of course, such a view wouldn't get me any "good" ratings, but I'm compelled to say it as it is.

Also, I’m not trying to “prove” that the “usual price” is $31.5K. All of us know that prices of pianos increase yearly.

What I’m saying (and perhaps I weren’t being clear) is: how does the dealer justify a 15K price hike in merely three years considering the horrendous economy?

And this "Singaporean hot deal price" is for MUCH lesser full warranty (only 1 year), ALMOST no dealer prep, and no MPA visit; this price is also much higher than the US (which INCLUDES ten years FULL warranty, dealer prep, PLUS MPA visit from Japan).

Hi I'm also looking to replace my 10 yrs old Yamaha clavinova. Currently the sound will stop suddenly while you are playing, if you turn it off then on again, the sound comes back. Is this expensive to rectify? I'd figured if I could do a trade in, I would get more if it weren't so obviously broken.

I have been making some calls, the Kawai K3 brand new is $7750, and I can get a used Kawai BL51 for $3K, granted that i have yet to see the condition of the BL51.

One question I'd like to find out is there a huge difference between a used and a brand new piano ?
Also are there any china pianos that are like around $2k and sounds and plays about the same as a used kawai. What is the major con about china pianos is it prone to have problems ?

Thank you so much for your time. On a side note does anyone know where I can buy the "Alfred's Basic Adult Piano Course" in Singapore? I can read notes and wish to self learn.

--------------------------------
Edit: I read about Bihua looking to buy a piano and how she decided on a Hailun 125. It seems to be just the thing for me too both quality and price wise. So I guess I've found the answer to my quest unless there is some reason why I should not get a hailun.

DayDreamer, you can buy the book from the Yamaha shop at Plaza Sing or a piano book shop at Bras Basah Complex.

If you can't "prove" that the "usual" price is $31.5K three years ago, then neither can you reasonably assert with that "average" prices have gone up specifically by $15K in three years. Its a simple, and pretty obvious point to me.

Besides, the correlation between the horrendous MACRO economy AND the PIANO MARKET is not always perfect. It could be that the average buyer of a SK may be less affected by the slew of job cuts etc that are going on now. Or simply that they have so much spare cash that their ability to purchase a piano is unaffected by recent events. Or even if there is a positive correlation, the piano market could well respond to the broader economy with a lag. The fact is that we simply don't have the data to make such a strong assertion that you have made above.

A far as I can see, that demand for Shigerus has held up relatively well over the past three years, partly because for the quality they deliver, they are seen as being cheap relative to the LOCAL competition ( which is a much more relevant point of comparison, rather than the US).

And because of perceived value in the LOCAL universe, consumers are willing to fork out over $40K for a Shigeru.

I agree that service and prep standards leave very much to be desired - consistent with my own experience when I was making a choice between the SK and Sauter 3 years ago. But since the vast majority of buyers are unable to distinguish between a prepped and unprepped piano, this a largely irrelevant and moot point to them. As many have earlier pointed out, ignorance is bliss.

On the supply side, the argument about a "lower" cost of living in the US may not be relevant. First, what matters here is not the "cost of living" generally defined, but the specific cost structure facing piano dealers. I would not be surprised that overheads are significantly higher in Singapore, especially the rental and energy components. Lets not forget that retail rents have soared over the past 2-3 years, and since rental rates are fixed for a number of years, Robert may not be beneftting tremendously from recent falls in retail rents. While it is highly likely that retailers in New York could face higher rents than in Singapore, I would not be surprised that retailers in more outlying states could well face far lower rental costs.

Second, and related to the above point, it is probably a mistake to think of one singular US price - the US is a largely country, with each state/city in itself likely a self contained market, and each with a different cost structure, and different local market conditions. Fine's price is probably an average of prices across the country - a gross simplification likely.

Third, while Robert is largely a monopoly for Kawai pianos in Singapore (as well as Malaysia), there are a far larger number of dealers in the US, even if they are all in different states/cities. This may in turn compel US dealers to accept lower selling prices and smaller profit margins if they wish to stay in business. Unfortunately, the small market here probably makes it less feasible to have more than one dealer of any make.

Have you also considered that the exchange rate may also be playing a huge factor in keeping prices elevated? The Singapore dollar has weakened over the past half a year, while the yen has appreciated significantly. That must surely be one massive factor keeping prices elevated despite a weak economy.

Ultimately, price is a function of both supply (which is what your argument is largely focused on) AND demand. Even if Robert's cost structure was far lower than in the US, the SKs would not be able to sell for this price if buyers were not willing to pay this price in the first place. If all buyers in the market felt the same way as you did, Robert Pianos would be eventually compelled to drastically slash prices of Shigerus, else lose business to competing German brands. That he remains able to sell Shigerus at this price suggests that the market is willing to support this price remains intact for now, poor macroeconomy notwithstanding.

There's nothing about "justifying" the price increases we have seen in recent years. Simply put, the seller tries to get the best price he can, given the circumstances, as does the buyer.

If you can't "prove" that the "usual" price is $31.5K three years ago, then neither can you reasonably assert with that "average" prices have gone up specifically by $15K in three years. Its a simple, and pretty obvious point to me.

Besides, the correlation between the horrendous MACRO economy AND the PIANO MARKET is not always perfect. It could be that the average buyer of a SK may be less affected by the slew of job cuts etc that are going on now. Or simply that they have so much spare cash that their ability to purchase a piano is unaffected by recent events. Or even if there is a positive correlation, the piano market could well respond to the broader economy with a lag. The fact is that we simply don't have the data to make such a strong assertion that you have made above.

A far as I can see, that demand for Shigerus has held up relatively well over the past three years, partly because for the quality they deliver, they are seen as being cheap relative to the LOCAL competition ( which is a much more relevant point of comparison, rather than the US).

And because of perceived value in the LOCAL universe, consumers are willing to fork out over $40K for a Shigeru.

I agree that service and prep standards leave very much to be desired - consistent with my own experience when I was making a choice between the SK and Sauter 3 years ago. But since the vast majority of buyers are unable to distinguish between a prepped and unprepped piano, this a largely irrelevant and moot point to them. As many have earlier pointed out, ignorance is bliss.

On the supply side, the argument about a "lower" cost of living in the US may not be relevant. First, what matters here is not the "cost of living" generally defined, but the specific cost structure facing piano dealers. I would not be surprised that overheads are significantly higher in Singapore, especially the rental and energy components. Lets not forget that retail rents have soared over the past 2-3 years, and since rental rates are fixed for a number of years, Robert may not be beneftting tremendously from recent falls in retail rents. While it is highly likely that retailers in New York could face higher rents than in Singapore, I would not be surprised that retailers in more outlying states could well face far lower rental costs.

Second, and related to the above point, it is probably a mistake to think of one singular US price - the US is a largely country, with each state/city in itself likely a self contained market, and each with a different cost structure, and different local market conditions. Fine's price is probably an average of prices across the country - a gross simplification likely.

Third, while Robert is largely a monopoly for Kawai pianos in Singapore (as well as Malaysia), there are a far larger number of dealers in the US, even if they are all in different states/cities. This may in turn compel US dealers to accept lower selling prices and smaller profit margins if they wish to stay in business. Unfortunately, the small market here probably makes it less feasible to have more than one dealer of any make.

Have you also considered that the exchange rate may also be playing a huge factor in keeping prices elevated? The Singapore dollar has weakened over the past half a year, while the yen has appreciated significantly. That must surely be one massive factor keeping prices elevated despite a weak economy.

Ultimately, price is a function of both supply (which is what your argument is largely focused on) AND demand. Even if Robert's cost structure was far lower than in the US, the SKs would not be able to sell for this price if buyers were not willing to pay this price in the first place. If all buyers in the market felt the same way as you did, Robert Pianos would be eventually compelled to drastically slash prices of Shigerus, else lose business to competing German brands. That he remains able to sell Shigerus at this price suggests that the market is willing to support this price remains intact for now, poor macroeconomy notwithstanding.

There's nothing about "justifying" the price increases we have seen in recent years. Simply put, the seller tries to get the best price he can, given the circumstances, as does the buyer.

WzKit,

You wrote, “If you can't "prove" that the "usual" price is $31.5K three years ago, then neither can you reasonably assert with that "average" prices have gone up specifically by $15K in three years. Its a simple, and pretty obvious point to me.”

>You are obviously creating a straw man here. I didn’t say, “I couldn’t prove.” I wrote, “I’m not trying to “prove’”.

Now that’s a big difference.

And would you expect a mathematical “proof?” This is not math or mathematical logic; we can only furnish customers/forum evidence, and such evidence does not convey 100% certainty. The only more “certain” way is to acquire the actual prices i.e. accounts/documents from the dealer for that year, and surely you do not expect me to provide that on this forum (unless you have the connections with the dealer and you can have access to such documents).

In a previous post (which I hope you read), I quoted one such example (which I gleaned from the forums):

http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,10125.0.html

Pianoheart wrote:

« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2005, 10:49:00 AM »

"By the way, I visited Yamaha's showroom today. I was told that they are going to have a one day only special offer on C3 in September, the price will be very much the same to SK3 (based on what you paid for SK2). So....can anyone advise me if SK-3 and C3 are offered at same price, which piano is more worth the $$$$$?
Many many thanks."

So based on this example (I’m not trying to “prove” anything here), it is clear that the SK3 and the C3 were at around the same price in 2005.

You wrote, “Besides, the correlation between the horrendous MACRO economy AND the PIANO MARKET is not always perfect. It could be that the average buyer of a SK may be less affected by the slew of job cuts etc that are going on now. Or simply that they have so much spare cash that their ability to purchase a piano is unaffected by recent events. Or even if there is a positive correlation, the piano market could well respond to the broader economy with a lag. The fact is that we simply don't have the data to make such a strong assertion that you have made above.”

>Now isn’t that a red herring? The issue was whether the “PRICE” was reasonable, and has nothing to do with whether the buyer is able to afford the exorbitant pricing etc.

You wrote, “A far as I can see, that demand for Shigerus has held up relatively well over the past three years, partly because for the quality they deliver, they are seen as being cheap relative to the LOCAL competition ( which is a much more relevant point of comparison, rather than the US).”

>Now, WzKit, I don’t know what you are driving at here.

You know that there is ONLY ONE Kawai dealer in Singapore.

So what local competition are you talking about? Besides, when there is only one dealer (i.e. monopoly), and using your reasoning, the dealer could very well quote/sell the SK for whatever price he/she likes. And you HAVE to say that IS a reasonable price.

Now that’s convincing.

You wrote, “And because of perceived value in the LOCAL universe, consumers are willing to fork out over $40K for a Shigeru.”

>Now how can you “PROVE” that? (Using your rhetoric) :p

I bought one because of misinformation/lack of information.

Given the consumer information, I wouldn’t have bought the SK3.

I would have bought a Sauter or a Grotrian (which, although being more expensive, I perceive as being more valuable).

You wrote, “I agree that service and prep standards leave very much to be desired - consistent with my own experience when I was making a choice between the SK and Sauter 3 years ago. But since the vast majority of buyers are unable to distinguish between a prepped and unprepped piano, this a largely irrelevant and moot point to them. As many have earlier pointed out, ignorance is bliss.”

>So are you saying that piano consumers SHOULD remain ignorant (in order to be blissful)?

We have the right to make an informed decision. Asking customers to buy (by withholding relevant information) is akin to dishonesty.

You wrote, “On the supply side, the argument about a "lower" cost of living in the US may not be relevant. First, what matters here is not the "cost of living" generally defined, but the specific cost structure facing piano dealers. I would not be surprised that overheads are significantly higher in Singapore, especially the rental and energy components. Lets not forget that retail rents have soared over the past 2-3 years, and since rental rates are fixed for a number of years, Robert may not be beneftting tremendously from recent falls in retail rents. While it is highly likely that retailers in New York could face higher rents than in Singapore, I would not be surprised that retailers in more outlying states could well face far lower rental costs.”

>Point taken, it is a possibility, but how would you PROVE that? Isn’t that mere speculation? Given the higher cost of living in the US (in general), the onus of proof is on you to make that point.

You wrote, “Second, and related to the above point, it is probably a mistake to think of one singular US price - the US is a largely country, with each state/city in itself likely a self contained market, and each with a different cost structure, and different local market conditions. Fine's price is probably an average of prices across the country - a gross simplification likely.”

>Again, I am making a comparison with the US prices I know of – it is quite laborious – even in a well-researched survey – to furnish you with prices from ALL dealers in the US. I trust Fine has done a reasonable amount of study into this.

You wrote, “Third, while Robert is largely a monopoly for Kawai pianos in Singapore (as well as Malaysia), there are a far larger number of dealers in the US, even if they are all in different states/cities. This may in turn compel US dealers to accept lower selling prices and smaller profit margins if they wish to stay in business. Unfortunately, the small market here probably makes it less feasible to have more than one dealer of any make.”

>Exactly, it’s probably dealer monopoly in Singapore that pushed the prices of Kawai pianos up into the sky. Probably.

You wrote, “Have you also considered that the exchange rate may also be playing a huge factor in keeping prices elevated? The Singapore dollar has weakened over the past half a year, while the yen has appreciated significantly. That must surely be one massive factor keeping prices elevated despite a weak economy.”

>That could have, but to justify such a significant increase one would need more valid reasons. I know for sure the Yamaha pianos (including the C3) have remained the roughly the same price since 2005; in fact, it seems to be cheaper now. It is, after all, a Japanese piano. So what is that Yen doing to Yamaha?

You wrote, “Ultimately, price is a function of both supply (which is what your argument is largely focused on) AND demand.”

>I don’t think I argued based upon supply and demand; I’m not an economist. I argued that, even with the rising Yen, ceteris paribus, the price of SKs in Singapore is exorbitant compared to another First World Country with even higher costs of living (USA). I’m not convinced that overheads in Singapore are significantly higher than the US. And you have conceded that it’s probably dealer monopoly in Singapore that pushes the prices up.

You wrote, “Even if Robert's cost structure was far lower than in the US, the SKs would not be able to sell for this price if buyers were not willing to pay this price in the first place.”

>You are assuming that buyers/consumers have access to relevant information to make that decision to purchase, which is why I am convinced that such information should be furnished, especially in this forum.

You wrote, “If all buyers in the market felt the same way as you did, Robert Pianos would be eventually compelled to drastically slash prices of Shigerus, else lose business to competing German brands. That he remains able to sell Shigerus at this price suggests that the market is willing to support this price remains intact for now, poor macroeconomy notwithstanding.”

>That’s a false dilemma. It could also be that consumers in Singapore are ignorant (your ‘ignorance is bliss’ point), and are misinformed. It could also be that other brands e.g. Grotrians, Sauters are not advertised/known as well. As for me, I did not even know there is a Grotrian dealer in Singapore, and I only heard of the Sauter dealer AFTER I purchased the SK3.

I did ask for information on such dealers in this forum, and did not receive any feedback at that time – which resulted in my purchase of the SK3.

You wrote, “There's nothing about "justifying" the price increases we have seen in recent years. Simply put, the seller tries to get the best price he can, given the circumstances, as does the buyer.”

>I would second your point if buyers are well educated about piano prices/quality and other brands, and are able to make an informed decision.