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Hello Riverrun and Cubop! I've glanced at your postings Riverrun... looks interesting! Just haven't had time to look closely yet. Good to have you guys in the mix.

Thanks Scott! Really enjoyed your playing. I'm still at a pretty early stage with mine. Must be great to have all those shapes under your fingertips!

Thanks jazzwee, I hope it's useful. I am trying to make it as clear as I can. The next set of examples should illustrate things. Meldhau uses ostinato patterns in one hand often and has great independence. I'm not sure how he developed it, but there must be a system that can be employed to get that kind of facility. It's certainly possible to learn to phrase in these odd groupings on the drums, with one limb keeping a steady quarter pulse underneath it. The AL 3+2 voicings, if arpeggiated, are fives anyway and flow nicely on and off the beat played as triplets.

A G left hand
C E B Right hand (3,5,9)

Can be played as


A G C E B | A G C E B | A G | D F# C E B | D F# C E B E C | G F# B D A


The second G above is on the downbeat. Just a steady stream of triplets. Sounds kinda cool.

riverrun, this is what I'm talking about. This is why I believe rhythm needs to be examined more closely. I got this DVD for Christmas but unfortunately there are no practice examples. That's in DVD 2. At 5:30 or so on, he plays incorporating the major rhythms.

Instead of counting 5's for example, he saying these should be understood as rhythmic sounds.

Mike Longo - Masterclass DVD on Polyrhythms


When I first started learning jazz, I would listen to a lot of swing variations and thought it was simplified as just dragging the beat at various amounts. Upon trying it, I realized that I just sound out of time.

I think the real trick here is LEARNING TO SUBDIVIDE in unique ways. It's not random swing. Unfortunately, as the video shows, it's hard to understand these rhythms as written concepts. But need to be heard.

He uses the Conga to demonstrate what the rhythms feel like.

I this topic has major implications to playing and it's rather huge.

Lots of stuff coming in real fast here. I will start with riverrun. Nice that you like Elvin. I heard him several times in a small club in Oslo, and always placed myself 5 feet in front of his bassdrum. Some experience. Ride cymbal work and having the feel for pushing and hanging your offbeats is absolutely basic for a jazz drummer, but I will come back to that.
So far I have been listening to chrisbell, jazzwee and scott. Very nice work from all of you. The last thing I heard was scotts My favorite things. Really impressive to play alone with so good rhythm and swing. To jazzwee and chrisbell I would say that your main problem is to get better backing. Jazzwee has pretty good backing on his Roland, but the ride cymbal work is not quite up to standard. Too much accent on the dotted sixteenths.
My own pianojazz playing is very much on the beginner level, and I also have a problem with backing. Getting to play with other musicians is not an option where I live, so I have to use what I have on my keyboards. So far nothing useful. Have checked Band in a Box. Not good enough. There is a demo on Youtube for Kawai MP5, with a very good jazztrack from an external source. So when I get the MP6, I should be able to solve that problem.
You may already suspect that when it comes to jazz drumming, I am an insufferable perfectionist. Well, lets just say I love good music, of any kind whatsoever. And there is some good pianoplaying on this forum.
cubop

Ahh, this is all fun stuff! Thanks RR for rhythmic inspiration and hjertelig welcome to cubop.
I'm off to a recording session (4-hands 1 piano, not me, I'm just the producer), and a gig tonight. Do anything I would do!

Hey jazzwee,

I watched the video closely. There's a lot of testimonials and it's very anecdotal. I also think he is mystifying things as a sales technique, born out by the wait till summer 2011 spiel to get the exercises. Sorry I'm not a fan of that, but will be keen to see what he does actually show, as I'm not that convinced ATM. Some decent piano playing though!

I hope this isn't too negative sounding, but I also don't know what 'Ontology' has got to do with polyrhythms (written on his board). This is pretentious and unnecessary obfuscation. I've studied some philosophy, and am not sure what concepts of 'being' have to do with swing. Maybe I'm missing something here. A bit too post-modern for my liking..

The one thing I do hear is the use of 6/8 against 3/4 type rhythms. Cubop will know all about this. And Dizzy certainly did use this idea. The classic and easiest singing phrase of this is from America: I Want to be in A - Mer- Ic - A

1 2 3 1 2 3 1 + 2 + 3 +

BTW When he counts in five he isn't actually playing in five. Reminds me of the kid who thought he was playing in seven. He was counting 'One, Two, Three, Four, Five, Six, SEV, EN' Those last two syllables turning it into 4/4!

Vocalising phrases is certainly the most musical way, but I still find counting very useful. For example if you are playing in seven it's really useful to feel it is as:

One Two Three and.

You will hear the bass player playing like this if you listen to Meldhau playing ATTYA in 7/4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4IFtgATxK0&feature=player_detailpage#t=256s

There is a very clear difference between odd-note group phrasing, mixing meters, metric modulation and polyrhythms. I can look at all of these if we want.

I've put together a simple variant of the table of time I linked to before. This time we are playing nothing but simple triplets, but in each bar, or grouping of bars - as some move over the barline - we move from accenting in 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s, 6s and 7s. I've included two audio examples exported from Sibelius. Unfortunately Sibelius has added an accent where one shouldn't be (it has a tendency to this even after hours of changing preferences etc). But they are adequate for getting the idea across.

Accenting the Rhythm Scale in Triplets:

http://www.box.net/shared/afs68p39ql

Audio examples:

At 60 http://www.box.net/shared/6zk3lr2e7m

and at 120 BPM http://www.box.net/shared/6etcgze1h8

This is a great little exercise I got from Steve Smith, a superb drummer taught by Gary Chaffee at Berkeley. You can do it anywhere. Just count internally.

The idea is to turn your phalanges and fingers into 4 bars of 4/4 time. Counting from the first joint of the pointing finger (2 of right hand for pianists) to the tip we have:

1 2 3 4. Next finger (3) in is
2 2 3 4, then (4)
3 2 3 4, and the pinkie (5) is
4 2 3 4.

So sixteen little taps with our thumb against our hand gives us four bars of time in 4/4. Now the fun begins.
We change the initial count so we are counting bars as well as quarters.

In the video ( Counting in Fives link here) I show how you can count fives in groups of sixteen against this. By using your thumb as the marker of time ('outlining quarters')

The count is

1234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234512345123451234

Notice how the accent sequence is 5 4 3 2 1 repeated 3 times. Your thumb should tap each joint (and tip) and fall on these numbers. I guarantee you will be feeling fives over the bar line in no time!

Hopefully the little vid will explain it. Not great quality. I just did it with my phone. Slight sync issue.

Interesting discussion we have going here. I have seen the video on polyrhythms and was not impressed. Dizzy Gillespie was a great musician, and his work with the great cuban conguero Chano Pozo is probably well known. If not it can be found on Youtube. Concerning complex polyrhythms the yoruba batadrummers are the masters of the art. Search Yoruba bata drumming on Youtube. The best example is on top of the list.
Concerning 3/4 and 6/8 the thing is to move in and out of duple and triple time, and moving accents and tonal variations around on one or more drums. One single drummer can do incredibly complex things, not to speak of four yoruba drummers. Theories are fine, but the best thing is to listen, and even better, to do it yourself.
cubop

Ok drummers, here's the issue. To play proper jazz, we have to syncopate our lines. This is not discussed much but anyone at an advanced level understands this.

As I've learned it so far, syncopation is random mixing of triple and duple feel with the phrases starting and stopping unexpectedly.

If I understand Mike Longo's approach in a practical sense (I'm not saying I really do), is that you build the rhythmic feel and variations by rote (by practicing conga rhythms) so that you really play with an underlying rhythm. Not the random way I do now.

When I'm playing piano, I'm thinking melodically, not counting. So Mike Longo seems to be making the player think of rhythms as verbal phrases.

I guess it's not too different from your A-me-ri-ca thing or Ten-ne-see or Mis-sis-sip-pi but in more complex combinations.

Now Brad Mehldau (WHO I AM SEEING TONIGHT!) has taken this further to actual polyrhythms rather than just syncopation. But regardless, syncopation is part of the prhaseology of Jazz though it is an advanced lesson.

I do have the Mike Longo DVD and it contains a lot of examples but nothing to sink my teeth into. So I just want something specific to practice.

For example riverrun, is practing in a 5 overlayed over 4 as you're showing a practical thing to be playing in a normal 4/4 tune? I'm not talking about Mehldau 7/4's here. I'm just thinking of normal 4/4 and 3/4 tunes and how to syncopate and vary phrases. I don't want to go too far advanced in rhythmic concepts when it is obvious that a lot of these are over our heads

BTW - I spent a week practicing a 9/8 over 6 bars pattern and I still don't know how to apply it Something that Bill Evans did.

Cubop, excellent post. I believe the Yoruba, through the practice of 'Santeria', maintained much of the artistic depth of their own music and traditions under the guise of 'christian' ideas, and that this thrived in music in the Caribbean. And that this led eventually to 'Afro-Cuban' and other styles. I must read more about this, always fascinated me. Will look on YT for the Yoruba drummers.

When it comes to subdivision of the beat are a couple of styles I really love, besides jazz: Brazilian Samba (and Partido Alto) and Flamenco. Brazilian music especially is almost impossible to write on a page. I know samba drummers from Brazil, and their time is totally unique. Incredible groove.

Now this is a practical point. I don't know how to count Samba. But just sitting here imagining someone creating a samba rhythm with varying subdiviions, I can just imagine it in my head and create phrases that follow it, stopping and starting at various points in that running rhythm.

Isn't that the more practical approach for non drummers?

Absolutely! And it will strengthen simpler phrases (say in 3). I understand what you mean by syncopation, and an exercise like this is a great way to develop that feeling. From Michel Camilo to Michael Brecker to Brad (AWESOME you are seeing him tonight!!) you constantly hear phrasing in fives. Once you feel it you will start hearing it everywhere. It works great over Latin type stuff. This is about adding angularity to your lines. It's definitely worth checking out.

Check Brecker's phrasing on this Steps Ahead track called Pools (Erskine on drums).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2iN9gqZsZQ

Fives all over it in groups of sixteenths. By that I mean accenting stabs in five. Playing one and three of a five note 16th note grouping simply puts your two notes on the beat and off the beat.

On that topic I think the speed at which you can hear off-beat subdivisions has a big influence on how you sound.

If you set a metronome to 60 BPM = 1/4 note

Clap off beat eights (straight, not swung).

Now clap off-beat 16ths

ie: the 'e' and 'a' of 1e+a2e+a etc

Now clap off-beat 32nds. There should be four between each metronome click. Always feel where the down beat is and don't start clapping ON the click. If you can do that take the metronome up 5 or 10 beats and try again.

Fun times.

Sure. Everything I talking about is for musicians, not drummers per se. I think rhythm and time are over-looked and what I'm showing is fairly simple. I'm not talking about Zappa's Black Page and how to play 21 over 3 half-notes! or how to solo in 19/18

If you can just feel it then you should go for it, but I got the impression you were feeling stymied from a syncopation perspective, so thought I would throw a few ideas out there. The basic Rhythm Scale is a foundation. How you create lines and syncopation from that is where I would like to go, but I'm trying to not get ahead of myself. I'm quite an advanced drummer and a total amateur pianist so it's hard to find a good balance

riverrun, that explanation was just way over my head. I don't think I have the capacity to hear 5's in Michael Brecker. It's just random syncopation to me. I understand I have to build the ear for this.

Your first clapping exercise is good. Let's build from that. At least the examples given show me how far I have to go. Go slow though. Clapping with a metronome is better than your 5 fingered video because on the video, I have to do 2 things at once. Not ready for that

But this is very important. It was demonstrated to me that Bill Evans was very good at these rhythms and that it exists in his playing if you listen to his accents.

It's the ear that has to be built here (the ability to hear the subdivisions). I'm ok with the simple stuff like 3 against 2 rhythms. Although it is still important to get a solid practice of that. Beyond that, I'm lost.

LOL! There is no doubt that your understanding of rhythms is VERY ADVANCED! If I can just understand 2% of it, I'll be in good shape.

As jazz pianists, this aspect of rhythm is way overlooked.

At my last jam session, I felt like a dope because my playing was in a groove. It's a rhythmic problem. So this is timely.

I was playing some swing and latin and I realize now that if I could feel the rhythm inside me, it would turn out better.

This is all great stuff! Much needed. I'm doing my best to understand... everything makes sense mathmatically speaking but I really have no idea how to go about putting it all together and really hearing it. I've always been weak in the rhythm department and I'm definitely interested in trying to grasp some of this. I'll keep following along for now.

This drummer is now reminding himself that this is about pianoplaying, not drumming. In drumming things are simpler.No chords and not too complicated melodic, so it van be useful to reduce it to that. Basically syncopation is very simple, bot not so easy to explain. And syncopations that works on drums do not work on the piano I think. The basics are the same, but the actual playing is (obviously?) different. I am trying to find some good examples, and the best I can come up with on piano is Bud Powell (Un Poco Loco) and Thelonious Monk (Round Midnight). Or Parkers Dewey Square. There is also a lot to learn from what jazz musicians do with standard tunes. Coltranes My favorite things, for example.
Sorry, that is all I can come up with at the moment. I think I must try Google.
cubop.

The difference rhythmically between piano and drums is that in piano, we stop playing (frequently). We're taught to add space.

Thus the behavior of syncopation is different.

There are a couple of ways to perceive this.

(1) Assume that each phrase stands by itself and it is made to start and stop in a structure that fits the bar. Random space inserted

(2) there is an underlying rhythm and the pianist's phrase is starting and stopping in conformance with the underlying rhythm (polyrhythm).

The samba one is a good example. One can imagine the samba rhythm going in one's head and if that structure exists, I believe it changes the phrasing.

This is my theory at the moment:

I think that the '(2)' method can change someone's sound so the rhythm isn't random.

I don't have a teacher that concentrates in this area but I think an understanding of this creates the difference between a mediocre player and a great player.

Hal Galper generalizes this by saying "My syncopation is cooler than your syncopation"...Doesn't explain why it's cooler though.

Understood. I'll back up a bit and 'recalibrate' my thoughts on this stuff. The clapping exercise is great, it goes back to why I first posted. Most everything above is about strengthening your inner clock: where one is, where the time is. where the 1/4 is. I adhere to the idea that if you do something a little more tricky in practice it makes everything else easier.

Try the clapping in triplets and don't forget that little middle triplet beat the first t, of 1 t t.

Then try twos.. clapping the first two:


1 T T 2 T T 3 T T 4 T T

The second two, the Ts.

1 T T 2 T T 3 T T 4 T T

and the 'shuffle'

1 T T 2 T T 3 T T 4 T T

then try 1/4 note triplets:

1 T T 2 T T 3 T T 4 T T

and then displace them, so that you start on the second triplet beat:

1 T T 2 T T 3 T T 4 T T

That gives you a nice 6 over 4 feel.

If you just take the triplet and sixteenths lines from the Rhythm Scale and start playing with moving between triplets and sixteenths you can start building lots of great syncopation.

One that I like is this, just using simple triplets:

1 T T 2 T T 3 T T 4 T T

Here is how that one sounds:

http://www.box.net/shared/gl7jstfvvz