2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

Who's Online Now
30 registered members (ChrisGoesPiano, Greta99, Andrew_G, earlofmar, Coda9, Bruce Sato, amyram, BachToTheFuture, grd-dan, 9 invisible), 232 guests, and 379 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: Rille Stark] #1596890 01/13/11 05:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 151
7even Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 151
Not sure if the sample size is 4GB or not, but I do like the sound of: "... Each [piano type (there are 2)] uses superb, un-looped stereo samples sampled at eight velocity levels for each and every key."


Now: RD-700NX
Someday: Steinway concert grand :|
(ad) ROLAND

Click Here

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: Hemppa] #1596894 01/13/11 05:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 213
K
kurtie Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 213
Wow, this thing seems so sweet! 3hearts

If the action is nice enough, and the price is not very expensive, could be a winner.

Originally Posted by Hemppa
How can you access that hypotethical 4Gb piano sample, if you don't have enough RAM to load it in? Or am I just being stupid?

E: Ah, VMT. Doesn't say much to me, though. Seems a little suspicious, somehow. Not convinced by the longevity of SSD's either.


SSD is fast enough for reading directly all the 88 notes (and beyond) simultaneously from the drive. You don't need to have all the sample set in RAM if you have storage fast enough for reading the samples on the fly.

Longevity of SSD it is usually compromised only by writing repeatedly (thousands of time). In a device like this, where SSD is mostly used for reads, it should last decades or centuries.

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: kurtie] #1596897 01/13/11 06:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 31
H
Hemppa Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 31
Ah, thanks. Not very familiar with SSD's yet

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: Rille Stark] #1596901 01/13/11 06:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 381
Rille Stark Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 381
Dimensions: (W x D x H)
88-key: 57.28” x 16.18” x 5.71”
1,455 x 411 x 145 mm

73-key: 48.94” x 16.18” x 5.71”
1,243 x 411 x 145 mm

61-key: 41.42” x 14.25” x 5.28”
1,052 x 362 x 134 mm

Weight:
88-key: 50.71 lbs. / 23.0 kg

73-key: 44.75 lbs. / 20.3 kg

61-key: 27.56 lbs. / 12.5 kg

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: kurtie] #1596934 01/13/11 07:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,179
S
sullivang Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,179
Originally Posted by kurtie

Longevity of SSD it is usually compromised only by writing repeatedly (thousands of time). In a device like this, where SSD is mostly used for reads, it should last decades or centuries.


Data retention is not all that fantastic though - according to this document, it's about 10 years:
http://www.imation.com/PageFiles/83/SSD-Reliability-Lifetime-White-Paper.pdf

I agree that the repeated write wear-out issue shouldn't be a factor for most users though.

Greg.

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: sullivang] #1596957 01/13/11 07:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 213
K
kurtie Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 213
Originally Posted by sullivang

Data retention is not all that fantastic though - according to this document, it's about 10 years:
http://www.imation.com/PageFiles/83/SSD-Reliability-Lifetime-White-Paper.pdf


Yes, you are right. I forgot about data retention. To solve that it should be enough to rewrite the data on the SSD once every 8 years or so. But I don't know if that is practical or possible in this case.

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: kurtie] #1596963 01/13/11 08:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 246
M
MarcoM Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 246
Originally Posted by kurtie
Yes, you are right. I forgot about data retention. To solve that it should be enough to rewrite the data on the SSD once every 8 years or so. But I don't know if that is practical or possible in this case.


it wouldn't surprise me if this was one of those things that the service will do when replacing the instrument's internal battery (which usually in most instruments dies in the 5-7 years range) it wouldn't be that hard to take care of...

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: Rille Stark] #1597142 01/14/11 03:18 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 329
Qbert Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 329
For instance, with Kontakt you can play 10GB pianos with only few hundreds of MBs loaded in memory. I think only attack sounds are stored in RAM. The complete sample will be loaded from HDD after the first milliseconds.

Last edited by Qbert; 01/14/11 03:19 AM.

GEM Promega 3 (sold) - Yamaha CLP 170 (sold) - Acuna88 (sold) - Kawai VPC1 + BK7m
Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: Rille Stark] #1597159 01/14/11 04:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,722
D
Dr Popper Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,722
This is a game changer in workstations , it just shows how terribly "Old" the Motif XF was when it was released.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: sullivang] #1597231 01/14/11 09:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,307
A
anotherscott Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,307
Originally Posted by sullivang
We want that $5.00 worth of 4GB in every day DPs as well.


As I talked about in another message not long ago, it's not $5 for 4 gb of real-time accessible memory. As I understand it, the cheap-per-gigabyte SD cards and SSD drives apparently use NAND flash memory, which functions essentially as a hard drive replacement (i.e. for "offline" storage); whereas much more expensive NOR flash memory is needed for RAM-style access (i.e. code can be executed "in place" and does not have to be copied into RAM first).

And this really illustrates how Korg took a different approach here. While Nord, Yamaha, and Kurzweil have chosen flash RAM as the vehicle for downloadable and user samples, Korg chose SSD streaming through a VM (virtual memory) system. My guess is that, like the OASYS, the Kronos is Linux based, which means VM support already existed in the OS, making this approach feasible.

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: Rille Stark] #1597392 01/14/11 01:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 381
Rille Stark Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 381
4,7 GB sampled piano! smile
12 GB total...


Last edited by Richard Stark; 01/14/11 01:54 PM.
Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: Rille Stark] #1597500 01/14/11 04:39 PM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 787
H
Hideki Matsui Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
H
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 787
This seems like a great product I may consider buying, but I wish Korg used a better action. Any news on release date and prices?


Shigeru Kawai SK5
Vintage Vibe 64
Roland LX-15e
Roland Jupiter 80
Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: Rille Stark] #1597631 01/14/11 08:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,179
S
sullivang Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,179
Anotherscott,
Is Korg executing code directly from the SSD that is used for sample storage? If not, then my assertion stands, I would have thought. (if it is, please give a reference - I'm interested)

Thanks,
Greg.

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: Rille Stark] #1597671 01/14/11 09:47 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 87
S
Scooby Hoo Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 87
Korg Audio Sample

Audio Demos are on the right. Can someone find an all-piano sample?

That said, the piano in this sample does not sound "Korgish", which is a good thing. To my untrained ears, it sounds full, rich, and clear.

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: sullivang] #1597708 01/14/11 10:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,307
A
anotherscott Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,307
Originally Posted by sullivang
Anotherscott,
Is Korg executing code directly from the SSD that is used for sample storage? If not, then my assertion stands


As I understand it, the answer is no... it is not possible to execute code directly from SSD which is NAND flash RAM.

But if your assertion is that any keyboard can have "4 gb of real-time accessible memory" for $5, no, that assertion does not stand. That's the assertion that I'm disputing.

As I understand it, the Nord/Yamaha/Kurzweil approach uses NOR flash which is directly real-time accessible, but very expensive. The processor addresses NOR flash as if it were RAM, executable code space. This RAM is not $5 for 4 gB, but the advantage is that their keyboards see it as real RAM.

SD cards and SSD drives use NAND flash which is *not* directly real-time accessible, but is much cheaper. The processor addresses NAND flash as if it were a disk drive, storage media. This is the kind of flash that may be $5 for 4 gB, but it is not directly addressable as memory by the processor, it could not be seen by a Nord/Yamaha/Kurzweil as real RAM. For that you need the more expensive NOR flash.

Korg is using a virtual memory system to stream data off the SSD as needed. Like Mac and Windows, virtual memory allows the system to rapidly swap data from a storage device in and out of real RAM, but it is not directly executing the code on the storage device. Korg is probably able to do this because the Kronos is probably LINUX based (as the OASYS was), so there's a full Intel computer in there with a sophisticated OS that already had the underpinnings to support virtual memory. Most keyboards are probably not LINUX based, and don't have as much computer power in them.

This is why I think you cannot simply put $5 of "cheap" flash RAM into a keyboard in order to have a 4 gB piano sample, if that's your assertion... you have to either put in very expensive flash RAM, or you have to have an operating system that supports a virtual memory implementation and all the rest of the hardware that goes with it... either way, it's not $5.

Lastly... 4 gB for $5 would imply 30 gB for about $38... but that's far less than what a 30 gB SSD drive costs, maybe half. Based on what Dewster explained, the SSD drives get their speed from running multiple flash units in parallel. A plain $5 4gB "SD card" would not be fast enough to stream from. So this is yet something else which raises the cost well above $5.

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: anotherscott] #1597715 01/14/11 10:54 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 870
G
galaxy4t Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 870
Well after viewing this demo, I would say this is the ultimate king of keyboards. Lots of forward thinking went into this thing, and I can't wait to try one of these. I can't see myself owning one of these as it is beyond my needs, but it sure would be great to see some of this technology trickle down to an affordable board some day. Really amazing stuff here.

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: Rille Stark] #1597725 01/14/11 11:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,179
S
sullivang Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,179
Anotherscott,
I don't think they have made enough effort to use cheap FLASH storage for sample storage in digital pianos. (yes, needs seperate memory for code) I do NOT think it would be that hard to design the necessary infrastructure. I'm wondering whether perhaps one reason for this is licensing costs of the larger sample libraries themselves, rather than the hardware cost? I've seen Dewster's comments on this issue (FLASH - not sample licensing) from time to time, and I wholeheartedly agree with him.

I'll repeat something I've said here before. There's not a heck of a lot of difference between my new Casio DP and the Kurzweil PX1000 module I had, which was designed some 30 years ago. There are forces at play other than hardware, I am sure.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 01/14/11 11:14 PM.
Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: sullivang] #1597760 01/15/11 12:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,307
A
anotherscott Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,307
Originally Posted by sullivang
I don't think they have made enough effort to use cheap FLASH storage for sample storage in digital pianos. (yes, needs seperate memory for code)


It's not just needing separate memory for code. If you're going to store a 4 gB piano in cheap (NAND) flash, you need 4 gB of real RAM to load it into. (And you'll have to deal with long loading times.)

If you don't want to put in that 4 gB of real RAM, then you either have to

a) use much more expensive (NOR) flash, OR

b) use the less expensive (but still not cheap) SSD-implemented flash in conjunction with an OS that can support virtual memory/streaming, and the rest of the hardware needed for that OS.

At least that's my understanding, and that's my point in a nutshell.


Originally Posted by sullivang
I do NOT think it would be that hard to design the necessary infrastructure

Well then by all means, do it, or hire someone to do it, and get rich! :-)


Originally Posted by sullivang
There's not a heck of a lot of difference between my new Casio DP and the Kurzweil PX1000 module I had, which was designed some 30 years ago.


I could be wrong, but wasn't the PX1000 something like $2000 back then? Which is probably about $4000 in today's dollars? If you can get a $700 Casio that's pretty similar today, I'd say that's progress, too.

But it is an interesting idea to consider that we just have come to *expect* things to keep getting better and cheaper. The last tonewheel Hammonds, original Rhodes, etc., really weren't all that much better than their first iterations decades earlier (though they did get more expensive). Computer technology has spoiled us!

Last edited by anotherscott; 01/15/11 12:33 AM.
Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: Rille Stark] #1597794 01/15/11 02:28 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 71
P
Psalm23 Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 71
I am sick,

I brought the Motif XF two months ago.

Re: Korg Kronos, 4GB pianosample in hardware! [Re: anotherscott] #1597818 01/15/11 04:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,179
S
sullivang Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,179
Originally Posted by anotherscott

It's not just needing separate memory for code. If you're going to store a 4 gB piano in cheap (NAND) flash, you need 4 gB of real RAM to load it into. (And you'll have to deal with long loading times.)


Even low speed (10 Megabytes/s) FLASH is suitable for streaming, ESPECIALLY when you consider that they could employ sample compression. (not enough bandwidth? Add some more!)

However, it doesn't cost that much extra for high speed (circa 30MB/s) devices, and we haven't even started to talk about SSDs yet - this is just dirt cheap USB dongle stuff.

Yes, it may still need a bit of RAM for the attack storage, and that would increase load time. (although it would be a lot better than a rotating disk - not as much memory would be required, and the access time would be better, and it would be possible to optimise the attack load as well)

The code is easy - just load THAT into memory.

Now, the cheapest SSD I can find on my local generic computer supplier's web site is AU$124.00 for 40GB. Assuming it is possible to use a tenth of the capacity of the storage (by using discrete memory chips rather than an entire SSD), that means it's $12.40 for $4GB. (ok, yes, add some for the more advanced sample engine etc) So I was out by $7.40. :P
SSDs, with their excellent access time, apparently may not even need ANY attack caching, and the bandwidth of SSD storage is sky high.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 01/15/11 05:51 AM.
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Piano World 

What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our January 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
Free Piano Newsletter
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Free Trial
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
(Vent) I hate my new electric piano
by Mariner - 02/24/20 12:53 AM
Choice of two old pianos
by ksdaddy - 02/23/20 07:59 PM
Kawai "Harmonic Imaging" - Progressive vs XL
by Ragtime2k - 02/23/20 07:35 PM
Garritan CFX problem
by kbrod1 - 02/23/20 07:04 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics197,156
Posts2,929,259
Members96,091
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3