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Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
Hideki Matsui #1592411 01/07/11 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Hideki Matsui
Originally Posted by bennevis
Playing it, I can't forget I'm using an electronic instrument, whereas with the V-Piano, the response is uncannily like an acoustic's.


How do you forget you are using an electronic instrument when you are using a pair of headphones to use the instrument? The way acoustic pianos actually deliver sound when you play or listen to someone playing them seems vastly different than a headphone experience.


I'm really talking about the connection between my fingers and the sound that I hear - whether through headphones or speakers. As I can't use speakers, I can't say whether the sound experience would be even better that way, especially if I had the doubled pair connected, with the distance and angles from the console as Roland advises in their manual. (Apparently the sound through each of the 4 speakers is subtly different to give the illusion of a concert grand cabinet in front of you.)

For me, when an instrument responds so beautifully to every minute change in touch and attack, and seems to have no limit to its power and depth of tone (apart from the limitations of my own strength, that is), the illusion is complete even via headphones. Acoustic uprights simply pale in comparison because their tone bottoms out so easily (and become harsh above a certain dynamic level) that I always feel like I have to limit myself in ff - and their key action is inferior to the V-Piano's in that I can't perform rapid repeated notes on them, because the notes won't sound again unless fully released (unlike grands - and the V-Piano).

I've been looking to see why the console of the V-Piano is so wide compared to other DPs, and realize that it is to enable it to have long keys (longer than any acoustic upright, and comparable to 7ft grands) which give it very realistic key action - which is why switching to concert grands from the V-Piano is straightforward, unlike from an upright.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
bennevis #1592413 01/07/11 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
For me, when an instrument responds so beautifully to every minute change in touch and attack, and seems to have no limit to its power and depth of tone (apart from the limitations of my own strength, that is), the illusion is complete even via headphones. Acoustic uprights simply pale in comparison because their tone bottoms out so easily (and become harsh above a certain dynamic level) that I always feel like I have to limit myself in ff - and their key action is inferior to the V-Piano's in that I can't perform rapid repeated notes on them, because the notes won't sound again unless fully released (unlike grands - and the V-Piano).

I agree with this; you've expressed this very well. I always found with the V-Piano that it just kept giving more.

Originally Posted by bennevis
I've been looking to see why the console of the V-Piano is so wide compared to other DPs, and realize that it is to enable it to have long keys (longer than any acoustic upright, and comparable to 7ft grands) which give it very realistic key action - which is why switching to concert grands from the V-Piano is straightforward, unlike from an upright.

The key length is exactly the same as all the other Roland DPs equipped with PHA-III (or II) action...there is nothing particularly special about the action (although it is very good).

Steve


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Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
ando #1592489 01/07/11 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ando
Imagine if you could use your Yamaha Avant Grand with a V-piano module, and even feed it back into the speakers of the Avant Grand. Now that would be something!

Considering that the V-piano only has 2 channels,you'd be wasting 10 of the 16 amplifier channels you get with the Avant Grand.


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Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
B. Michels #1592685 01/07/11 04:26 PM
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Ok ok ok James, so I'm a demanding consumer! Sue me! wink In all seriousness, I was thinking mostly about the V-Piano sound engine. Roland could very easily put the V-Piano in say the RG-1, RG-3, RG-7, or KRG-117 grand piano cabinet. I think they'd have sold a lot more if it came with different furniture. I think now that the RD700NX is out, most people will say, 'gee, I get the SuperNATURAL piano sound engine granted not modeled, but still very good sounding and it's SuperNATURAL, plus a plethora of other sounds, the PHA III Ivory Feel action/keys, and it costs me half the money, in a much lighter weight package...'. The V-Piano deserves to be in a grand piano cabinet with Roland's nice speaker system. After all, they are seeking to create the ultimate digital piano experience. Come on, that's not too much to ask! smile


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Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
B. Michels #1592759 01/07/11 06:27 PM
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I agree PianoZac.

I have physically proven the concept recently with my stripped upright case loaded with the Adam A7's.

I have demonstrated for a few people. The beaming smiles on their faces in approval, acknowledgment and acceptance that it is real was all I needed to see. Who are these people? What are their credentials? Let me just say they are discerning individuals.

My original desire was to build the baby grand case but I thought I should travel along a path of gradual development starting with the existing upright case and customizing.

So imagine this: You walk into a piano show room , you choose a brand new grand , sit and play a melody passage. The brightness, liveliness of the new strings, hammers, soundboard produce the most beautiful clean articulated detailed sound. When I remove the front panel of the upright the sound produced from my Adams angled up pushing the sound past my ears emulates this experience. So I know how brilliant this would sound in a grand case.

Yes , Roland could deliver something fantastic. I am sure they are fine tuning a decision if one is not already made.

So PianoZac, Bennevis, EssBrace (I know you still believe although you returned your 'V') and I should sit with the Roland team and give them a stern dressing down and then a motivational speech.

Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
B. Michels #1592773 01/07/11 06:50 PM
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PianoZac, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a demanding DP consumer. Indeed, folks like yourself are an asset to the industry. wink

The point I was attempting to make is that every consumer has slightly different needs. If manufacturers were to develop instruments based entirely on individual requests, they would be left with a highly fragmented product range, consisting of many instruments that each sell in relatively small quantities - that's simply not a profitable way to do business.

Cheers,
James
x


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Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
V_Piano_Man #1592890 01/07/11 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by V_Piano_Man
I have demonstrated for a few people. The beaming smiles on their faces in approval, acknowledgment and acceptance that it is real was all I needed to see. Who are these people? What are their credentials? Let me just say they are discerning individuals.

My original desire was to build the baby grand case but I thought I should travel along a path of gradual development starting with the existing upright case and customizing.

So imagine this: You walk into a piano show room , you choose a brand new grand , sit and play a melody passage. The brightness, liveliness of the new strings, hammers, soundboard produce the most beautiful clean articulated detailed sound. When I remove the front panel of the upright the sound produced from my Adams angled up pushing the sound past my ears emulates this experience. So I know how brilliant this would sound in a grand case.


I have no doubt that your setup sounds really great and nicely emulates the sound of an upright. A more direct use of the monitors will certainly yield better fidelity for listeners, but I think a D IY project using a real piano cabinet could be more effective than many of the consumer offerings out there.

That being said, I think overlooking why Yamaha chose to use multichannel processing with discrete output for the speakers placed on their “soundboard,” will give you something that might sound good, but in no way convincing if you are trying to reproduce the sound of an acoustic grand. It isn’t just about where you put tweeters, woofers, etc. Taking a 2 channel signal and pumping it through 4 speakers, or placing tweeters and woofers, are compromised ways to approach the reproduction of an instrument that radiates sound in all directions and has different tones being generated by strings that are located in specific areas of the piano. Yamaha definitely has the right approach using custom DSPs and multichannel recording and playback.

IMO, all of the pure digital grands out there are simply DPs in shiny cabinets because all they do is stuff speakers in a baby grand cabinet or have speakers resonate off a soundboard. I think the use of a soundboard is interesting but without using an approach similar to that found on the N3, you aren’t addressing one of the fundamental problems with trying to recreate the sound of an acoustic grand. It doesn’t matter for recording or most live stage performances. Nevertheless, if your goal is to create a digital grand piano that gives the user and listeners a transparent experience, DP sound technology has to be coupled with ideas that are well developed in sound reproduction.


Last edited by Hideki Matsui; 01/07/11 10:28 PM.

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Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
Kawai James #1592897 01/07/11 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by V_Piano_Man
I agree PianoZac.



Yes , Roland could deliver something fantastic. I am sure they are fine tuning a decision if one is not already made.

So PianoZac, Bennevis, EssBrace (I know you still believe although you returned your 'V') and I should sit with the Roland team and give them a stern dressing down and then a motivational speech.

I would love to have that opportunity! I agree, that perhaps Roland is considering putting the V-Piano, or offering at least, in a acoustic piano body. The V-Piano seems rather limited for the money insomuch as it is pretty much too heavy to gig with for all practical purposes, yet doesn't have the furniture that other digital pianos in its price range offer. I understand the V-Piano concept, and I really love playing it. I just feel Roland has a potential knockout in the V-Piano built in acoustic piano furniture.
Originally Posted by Kawai James
PianoZac, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a demanding DP consumer. Indeed, folks like yourself are an asset to the industry. wink

The point I was attempting to make is that every consumer has slightly different needs. If manufacturers were to develop instruments based entirely on individual requests, they would be left with a highly fragmented product range, consisting of many instruments that each sell in relatively small quantities - that's simply not a profitable way to do business.

Cheers,
James
x

Yeah I agree James. It would be far too impractical and costly to attempt to please everyone. I am happy with what the DP manufacturers are putting I. As cynical as some are, I think the Latest Yamaha, Roland, and Kawai instruments are all really great compromises.


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Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
PianoZac #1593799 01/09/11 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by PianoZac
Ok ok ok James, so I'm a demanding consumer! Sue me! wink In all seriousness, I was thinking mostly about the V-Piano sound engine. Roland could very easily put the V-Piano in say the RG-1, RG-3, RG-7, or KRG-117 grand piano cabinet. I think they'd have sold a lot more if it came with different furniture. I think now that the RD700NX is out, most people will say, 'gee, I get the SuperNATURAL piano sound engine granted not modeled, but still very good sounding and it's SuperNATURAL, plus a plethora of other sounds, the PHA III Ivory Feel action/keys, and it costs me half the money, in a much lighter weight package...'. The V-Piano deserves to be in a grand piano cabinet with Roland's nice speaker system. After all, they are seeking to create the ultimate digital piano experience. Come on, that's not too much to ask! smile


I think that Roland, when thinking about how best to present their new V-Piano sound engine in the most marketable form, chose the stage/studio piano route because they know that that's where their customer base who're prepared to pay top bucks (in DP terms) for the ultimate in playing experience and customization lie. We can already see from the numerous posts here that the vast majority of keyboard players, when given a choice between a DP offering the best playing experience and a lesser one at half the price, still with excellent sound but not the ultimate in playability and 'feel' of a real piano, will choose the latter, especially when the cheaper model also offers all the non-piano gizmos (rhythm accompaniments, non-piano sounds etc) that they expect from DPs. Only Yamaha, with its track record in acoustic pianos, can attract purely classical pianist customers (probably the one group that demands the best in 'authentic' playing experience, and prepared to pay for it) to expensive DPs.

This was brought home to me a few weeks ago when a cellist friend (who plays in an orchestra, but is also a competant pianist and in fact has more piano students than cello ones) visited me. I invited her to try out my V-Piano but she demurred initially, saying that the Roland name and its appearance put her off regarding it as a serious instrument. Eventually she agreed to give it a go and put on the headphones, when I showed her the music I've been practising on it (all serious stuff, and seriously difficult of course grin). She was pleasantly surprised, really liking my 'Fazioli' setting especially, and gradually gained confidence to give it a full workout, playing technically challenging music and exploring the whole gamut of its tonal and dynamic range (- I'd asked her not to hold back, as I never do myself).

Afterwards, she admitted that it actually did play like a grand piano and has better tonal characteristics and played more positively than the Schimmel upright she has at home. But....when asked the million-dollar question: would she buy one for herself, if she ever had to replace her Schimmel? - she thought about it, then said she still couldn't bring herself to use an electronic instrument with a Roland name as her main piano, simply because Roland has never made a proper acoustic piano, whereas if it had the Yamaha name on it, and it was housed in a proper piano cabinet, she'd seriously consider it. (Unlike me, she'd played on DPs for years before, all Yamaha CLPs and mainly to accompany students because there was no acoustic available, but had never previously enjoyed the 'artificial experience', as she puts it - a term that never cropped up when she played on my V-Piano).

Therein lies the problem Roland faces, I think. Even if Roland put the V-Piano into a grand piano cabinet with an elaborate speaker system like the N3, they'd still have a hard sell on their hands: the only people who're prepared to fork out the cash would be serious classical musicians (considering buying baby grands perhaps) who need the silent option, yet they're the ones who wouldn't consider a Roland instrument (synonymous with rock and pop bands as their gig keyboards) as appropriate for a classical pianist brought up on purely acoustic pianos. Classical pianists like me who can dissociate aesthetics, appearance and brand from actual playing experience are few - but then I have the advantage that I'm only playing for myself, and noone need know what I'm playing on at home, which professional pianists and teachers don't have.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
B. Michels #1594768 01/10/11 04:13 PM
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I don't know when or how much but they are listening and it IS coming. Here is a picture, looks like they're using a good sized cabinet also thumb

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Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
B. Michels #1594797 01/10/11 04:45 PM
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I bet that V Grand is going to cost a bloody fortune that would make your eyes water...

Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
B. Michels #1594800 01/10/11 04:46 PM
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Cooooool!

Originally Posted by bobbo
I bet that V Grand is going to cost a bloody fortune that would make your eyes water...


I bet it'll still be less than an N3 just for competition's sake. Especially since the original V-Piano was probably a bigger deal for Roland in terms of some novel technology offering and therefore pricing.

Last edited by drexel; 01/10/11 04:51 PM.
Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
drexel #1594803 01/10/11 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by drexel
Cooooool!

Originally Posted by bobbo
I bet that V Grand is going to cost a bloody fortune that would make your eyes water...


I bet it'll still be less than an N3 just for competition's sake.


Maybe, but I find Roland digital grands are generally more expensive than Yams...

Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
B. Michels #1594895 01/10/11 06:57 PM
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Nice find Tigg!


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
B. Michels #1594904 01/10/11 07:21 PM
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Brilliant! Interesting the position of speakers. Although can not see all detail from this photograph.

Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
B. Michels #1594931 01/10/11 08:13 PM
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If they do a RG style mini grand version of this I will be very interested...

Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
TTigg #1594939 01/10/11 08:23 PM
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Ooooo, I already love the V completely, but that V grand is so purty!!! 3hearts

Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
B. Michels #1595144 01/11/11 06:08 AM
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I never thought Roland would put themselves out to challenge Yamaha like that. Funny, I was reading a review in a professional music journal recently that suggested that singer-pianists like Elton John might seriously consider putting the V-Piano into a Yamaha grand cabinet for their pop gigs, and noone need ever know they're not actually playing a real grand piano....

But what sector of the pianist market would Roland be targetting with this design? Many classical pianists would still need a LOT of convincing to even try out something with a Roland name on it - not to mention a DP of any sort (just read the posts in the Piano or Pianist forum): most already have ingrained prejudices which will be difficult to shift.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
bennevis #1595155 01/11/11 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis


But what sector of the pianist market would Roland be targetting with this design? Many classical pianists would still need a LOT of convincing to even try out something with a Roland name on it - not to mention a DP of any sort (just read the posts in the Piano or Pianist forum): most already have ingrained prejudices which will be difficult to shift.


You may be right, but it's still pretty ridiculous. I can't see how a Yamaha digital carries any more pedigree than a Roland pedigree. Neither are made by the same designers or factories as an acoustic piano. They are both digitals, and should be assessed on their merits. I honestly don't think anybody would care if Elton John or Billy Joel turned up on stage with a Roland grand. It's the modern world. If Krystian Zimerman appeared with a Roland grand that might raise a few eyebrows though.

Re: Yamaha Avantgrand v/s Roland V-Piano
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Originally Posted by ando
You may be right, but it's still pretty ridiculous.


I think you are underestimating the potential ridiculousness of people. Roland has been making digital grands for a while now. The question will most likely be whether or not the new V-Piano technology will be compelling enough for people to start buying them.

The market for digital grand pianos is a strange one.

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