Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Steingraber-Phoenix: discovery and decision.

Hi everyone, this is my first post on the forums. I have read several threads with great interest. I am a keen, though not especially proficient, amateur pianist, with a love of Bach and Chopin in particular. I have always wanted to own a good boudoir Grand, and imagined that it would be one of the well-known German makes. However it was here that I learnt of the existence of the Steingraber, and of the Phoenix variant. Having followed a link from this site to Hurstwood Farm Piano Studio in Kent, UK, I read with fascination about Richard Dain's patented bridge agraffes. I had the pleasure of meeting Richard Dain, and later his main technician, Geoffrey Sapsford, both of whom exude passion for the instrument.

I tried a few pianos - a Bosendorfer, some Steinways, Bluthner, Bechstein, and then sat down at a Steingraber-Phoenix 168 (5'7). I really did have that experience that one hopes for but rarely enjoys, of playing a piano that sounds and feels beautiful. I had read the phrase 'painfully beautiful' on this site, and that is exactly how it felt. The sustain is extraordinary, and, especially in the version with carbon fibre soundboard, the warmth is tremendous. It manages to achieve the bell-like purity that I associate with Steinways, with the warmth I associate with Bluthner and Bechstein, and the dynamic range is amazing. The 168 really does sound at least a foot larger - and therefore in my opinion rivals the Steinway B (6'10).

I had always thought that when I come to be able to afford/finance a top-level grand, it would have to be a Steinway or Bosendorfer. Now I am very seriously considering buying the S-Ph 168. While I love the sound of the Steinway B, a new one is more than twice the price of the S-Ph 168 (of course a fairer comparison would be with the S-Ph 205, but the 168 really does sound as rich as the B, and for my living room, will be more than large enough in sound and dimensions.

I am also considering a much cheaper 1969 Bechtein B (5'10), with a view to owning it and spending a few years selecting (and saving for) an 'ultimate lifetime instrument', but I think that the 168 might be just such a find.

Alternatively I could buy a 1970s fully restored Steinway B for around the same cost as the new 168.

I hope this is of interest, and welcome any comments pro or con my purchase of the 168 before I finally commit myself.

Oh, and one seemingly trivial but really cool and possibly deal-making feature of the S-Ph 168 is the option of mammoth tusk ivory keys!

Best regards

Will

Will,

Very informative.

Steingreaber is a niche brand but very high regarded by insiders, also for the uprights.

Did you also play the 'regular' Steingraeber 168?

If so, what are your comments here?

schwammerl.

Hi Swammerl

I don't remember playing a non-Phoenix 168 to compare, but I did do this with a non-Phoenix 205 and one with the Phoenix system. It actually took me a few journeys from one to the other to start to notice the effect, but when I did, it was very clear. The sound seemed warmer to me, and the sustain was longer. There was also the effect that Richard Dain has described, where the action feels lighter even though it isn't - it is just that the power efficiency is much better, so you need less effort.

On another note of comparison, there were five 168 S-Phs. Two had carbon fibre soundboards. To me, these both sounded richer, and made the spruce soundboard models seem a little 'woody-thuddy', for want of a more technical phrase. They were still lovely instruments, and may be more to some people's taste, but I am looking for less thud and more warmth and 'bell'.

Purchase the piano that you love. The passion you have for the piano is very evident, even through cyberspace =)

If you prefer the Steingraber-Phoenix 168 definitively then purchase it! The only thing I might add that could be a measurable difference would be the resale value of that piano compared to the others mentioned, especially the Steinway. This is only because it is not very well known.

Sometimes the thought of having something different or unique is tantalizing..

Good luck and keep us posted..

I'm with diaphragmatic on this one... if you can comfortably afford this piano, then you should buy it, as this is clearly a case of Piano Love At First Sight.

To me it makes a lot more sense to buy the piano of your dreams now (again, this is all contingent on your finances as being able to swing it) rather than buying an intermediary piano...first, because it will be more economical in the long run than buying and then trading up, and second, because every time you sit on the bench of a lesser piano you'll be remembering that Steingraeber and sighing with regret. And that's not fair to the lesser piano.

p.s. Welcome to the forum!

[Oh, and one seemingly trivial but really cool and possibly deal-making feature of the S-Ph 168 is the option of mammoth tusk ivory keys!]

This is extremely uncool. Wool felts are bad enough. I hope for a substitute someday.

Huhhh???

What's so bad about wool?? It's sheep hair. It grows back!

I don't have any problem with it as long as the keys are sourced from free-range mammoths who died of natural causes.

If my country in "Asia" made it an "opt-out" option for the whole nation to donate her organs when the brain-stem stops whining, I guess it isn't an unforgivable sin to flake those fossils of its ivory. Dead mammoths wouldn’t be using those for courtship display, won’t they?

.

I have played a Steingraeber with the mammoth tusk - it does almost feel like (elephant) ivory. Our Steingraeber has a ceramic/polymer composite on the white keys, which I find is a perfectly adequate substitute.

Mammoth tusk is not quite as dense a material as elephant tusk, and is not recommended for extremely dry climates (as it might crack) - at least that is what I was told by Steingraeber (not that it would be an issue for Munich - not exactly desert climate here).

When I visited Hurstwood farm about 18 months ago, I played what I think was the first Phoenix 168. Generally, I think the 168 is a very impressive instrument for its size (with or without bridge agraffes), but it does have the draw back of rather short keys (as any instrument of that size) compared to the larger instruments (but then it also needs less space). So I would not throw out the idea of the used Steinway B (this is if you have the place, the restricting factor is the budget), of course having a very careful look at its condition. With the Steingraeber 205, the decision, at least for me, would be obvious (maybe wait for the Steingraeber C-212?).

Regarding the bridge agraffes - I like the idea and also the fact that a top manufacturer embraces it and therefore opens up a new tonal palette. Soundwise, however, I prefer the conventional arrangement of string on wood rather than string on metal on wood. I also had the feeling that the bridge agraffes make the instrument much more sensitive to voicing with a slight danger of the sound going into "metallic".
But then, with all of these things it is a matter of taste, and possibly the "added value" (if you like to call it that) of a bigger sound due to the bridge agraffes is probably greatest on the 168 of all the Steingraeber grands.
Ours is a "conventional" instrument. Being, of course, extremely biased, I fully understand your enthusiasm for the Steingraeber grands. Whenever I play another high-end instrument elsewhere and come back to ours, I haven't played one yet that is as wonderful in subtelty and richness of tone ...

Markus

Lucky you to be close enough to Hurstwood to experience their pianos!

And lucky for you that the cost of a Steingraeber is less than a Steinway. Here they are equal to, or more than, the NY Steinways!

Steingraeber's are beautiful instruments and if I could, I certainly would!

I'll be very happy for you if one of them becomes your new instrument.

-

(And boo on you, dsch, for trying to rain on willy's parade. It would have been wiser to start a new thread.)

I think you have found an excellent dealer who always has sensible prices - none of the silly mark up nonsense you see elsewhere- and an excellent piano. Prep will be excellent from Hurstwood. I would go for it too. For me I prefer a bigger piano, but the Steingraebers typically outperform their size and they are fantastic value with Steinway beating performance and quality at substantially less cost.

Good luck with your decision. I suspect your mind is already made up.

Adrian

I'm not positive, but I think the OP is comparing the price of Steingraeber 168 to the Steinway B. If that is the case, then Steingraebers wouldn't really be less expensive.

As far as I know (at least they did a year ago), Steingraeber publish a price list for Europe which they send out with the catalogue. Add the VAT for your country and you get a final price. Dealers may give slight discounts from that price. I don't think that excessive marking up is that common in Europe (at least for the high end instruments) anyhow as it appears to be in the US (but then the perceived "discounts" are smaller).

Hurstwood Farm is - with the black polyester finish - at approximately that (or at least was before the slide of the pound), but from what I understood they don't charge extra for the Phoenix system (or at least didn't), and possibly also not for wood finished (this might depend on the type of veneer, though). Anyhow - I agree with Adrian - Richard Dain is an excellent dealer, he knows his stuff and will not try to trick anyone.

If you call 5-10% "substantially less", then that applies for the Steingraeber compared to Steinway (at least with prices in Germany). In particular, the newer models (E and D) are fairly close to the similarly sized Steinway.

Will,

I'd just make sure that the tusks are no longer attached to the Mammoth prior to delivery.

Best of luck,
fingers

Thank you everyone for your energetic responses to my post (please continue).. to clarify re price comparisons, the S-Ph 168 ranges from around £32k-£38k depending on options. I have seen a very well restored 1972 Steinway B (from Jeffrey Shackle near Oxford) for £35. The S-Ph of similar size to the B is the 205 (B is 210 I think). This is around £10k more than the 168, so lies between a new and used Steinway B in cost. I am just comparing the prices of the 'instrument that would have a big enough sound given my 13'x15' living room'.

dsch: Thank you for this. I think I'll have to source the wool from something woolly, and already extinct. Hmm...

lilylady: my parade will need a little more than rain to dampen my enthusiasm, but thank you for being protective of this naive newbie.

fingers: I'll have an independent technician check this for me.

Diaphragmatic: I have discussed resale value with Hurstwood and am satisfied that the risk is containable.

Markus: Thank you for these thoughts. I will listen again to see if I think that the Phoenix sound is too metallic, but I found it warm on first two hearings. Perhaps good voicing/servicing will keep it away from the metallic. The issue of key length is an interesting one. I can't say that the level of my pianistic skill would necessarily justify worrying about this, although I would be able to fit a Steinway B or a S-Ph 205, so I will have a think about this.

Tomorrow I am off to Oxford to remind myself of the used Steinway B sound-and-feel (and to the Steinway warehouse near me in London). I will also try the 1969 Bechstein B again and decide whether I want/need an interim-piano strategy.

On Sunday or Monday I'm off to Hurstwood Farm again. I will report back!

While I am generally a thrifty person and always try to get a good deal on anything I purchase, I have learned over the years to get the instrument that you want on the first try. You never know what life is going to throw at you down the road and in my experience, once you have a piano in your house your "motivation" to get a new one is greatly diminished. Get the one you really want first and you will never be sorry. If you get an interim piano and your circumstances change and you are never able to turn that around to the one you really want, you may have some measure of regret for the rest of your life. For instance, I have always wanted a Steinway grand. I bought a lovely Knabe grand that is beautiful and a nice instrument, and I could afford it at the time, but it's no Steinway. That was 15 years ago. Now with two kids getting ready for college and many more financial obligations than I had then, a Steinway is still a long, long way down the road. Perhaps someday, but I may be too old to really enjoy it. Looking back with 20/20 vision I should have held out for the Steinway from the get go. It would have been delayed satisfaction at the beginning, but by now I'm sure I would have had the piano of my dreams for several years. I have learned to be satisfied with my Knabe, but still - someday, I would love to get that Steinway. To make matters worse, I just bought an "investment" Steinway from a private party. I got it specifically to "flip" it. I then cleaned it up, fixed it up a bit and resold it for a nice little profit. While I was in posession of both pianos the thought occured to me many times - "keep the Steinway, sell the Knabe" but we needed the money that we could get from the Steinway, as it brought much more money than the Knabe would have. So - having had a Steinway, my circumstances were such that I needed to unload it. So close, yet so far. I don't really have any serious regrets about owning the Knabe, it's been a fine piano - but it's not the piano of my dreams.

Although I very much love my piano, I have never played an instrumment that I could describe as "pianfully beautiful."

I'm envious of your experience with the Steingraber-Pheonix.

I look forward to reading your future posts as you seek out your perfect piano (though I'm pretty sure you've already found it).

This thread is nearly one year old.

But I still don't understand the pc'ness related to wool. It grows back. The sheep are not injured or tormented. Let's get a grip.