2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
35 members (CyberGene, Beowulf, CraiginNZ, Doug M., 14 invisible), 418 guests, and 457 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 9 10
Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
#1590814 01/04/11 11:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 732
J
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 732
I use the phrase "unequal temperament" because I can't find on the site what temperament was used. Reminds me of Bill Bremmer's EBVT a bit, but it may be a personal well temperament. Schumann's "Des Abends." played by Adolfo Barabino on a less than perfect old Bechstein, I think, at Emerson College, in Park Row, England:

http://www.youtube.com/user/latribe#p/search/9/Q9vbJxPhN3Y

Several hundred videos on this site, but only ten or so using this temperament. Thought some people here might enjoy it.


Last edited by Jake Jackson; 01/05/11 12:32 AM.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1591526 01/05/11 11:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 84
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 84
After I asked in the comments section of YouTube, the poster replied:

"It's a well temperament slightly less strong than Kirnberger III and near to Werkmeister."

Not sure what less strong and strong mean, though. In any case, the tuning was apparently done by David Pinnegar, who had previously tuned a piano at Hammerwood Park to the same temperament. There are more of these videos using this tuning than I first thought on this Youtube\subscription site. Around ten using this piano, and many others using the Hammerwood Park piano, which is a newer Bechstein.

Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1594099 01/09/11 04:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,018
B
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,018
"Stronger" or "Milder" simply implies how unequal the temperament is. Generally, the earlier the temperament, the more unequal it is but that is not always the case. Some of the early 18th Century temperament theorists who were known for temperaments that most people would consider "too strong" today also at least theorized about milder temperaments, approaching Equal Temperament ET) but never quite getting to what we know of as ET today.

The EBVT III that I am well known for was found, for example to be virtually identical to Johann Georg Neidhardt's Circulating Temperament #2 of 1721. Neidhardt, however did not write explicit instructions for it, only theoretical values.

Non-equal temperaments can range anywhere from an extreme that nearly no one would want to use for anything to just having a mild effect upon the music as does the EBVT III.

I was quite pleasantly surprised to see the number of people and examples on You Tube of exploration of non-equal temperaments. When I began using them as full time practice 22 years ago and dared to write about it on the Pianotech forum, other technicians found the very notion to be unthinkable. The practice is now far more often found to be acceptable and of interest to many people whose curiosity leads them to explore different possibilities.

This statement, "It's a well temperament slightly less strong than Kirnberger III and near to Werkmeister." leads me to believe that the technician indeed created his own composite design. That is not at all unusual for today nor was it unusual in past centuries for each person who tuned a keyboard instrument to effectively put their own signature upon it.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1595222 01/11/11 09:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 732
J
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 732
Thanks. I was confused by thinking of "strong" as meaning a stronger departure from a just tuning or a meantone of the era, as opposed to a stronger departure from our more recent ET.

It's an interesting tuning, in any case, particularly for the Schumann and Liszt pieces. I think I prefer the sound on the older Bechstein.

Last edited by Jake Jackson; 01/11/11 11:28 AM.
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1595583 01/11/11 07:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 198
U
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
U
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 198
Hi!

Thanks for inviting me into this forum . . . and it's GREAT to see the enthusiasm for unequal temperaments on the piano across the pond. Here in England, it's a matter of curiosity, madness indeed, and some people won't come to our concerts because they say the piano is out of tune!

I use a very standard unequal temperament which I believe is the strongest I can get away with in presenting classical music in all keys - and even Prokofiev doesn't mind it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH5LgMHBW30

Both the Hammerwood piano (1885) and the Emerson instrument (1895 or so) are tuned to the same temperament but the Emerson instrument being smaller has troubles with inharmonicities that I have never experienced on the longer instrument at Hammerwood. This has caused some of the recordings at Emerson to sound jangly, more like a fortepiano, and on
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=emerson+unequal+temperament
you'll see that I have labelled items where I am not satisfied by my tuning as "Experimenting" "Audition" "Testing" etc.

I first twigged that perhaps Chopin was writing for an unequal temperament when hearing Rose Cholmondeley playing the 2nd Sonata around the year 2000 and thereafter took the plunge and tuned the instrument unequally. I'm wondering if the 24 preludes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdsFLIo9l88
support the idea that UT is right for Chopin, especially the raindrop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsn9g4pS2RA

I'm not sure about Schumann in UT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSMX1s9HNc

You might find
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chopin+ballade+unequal+temperament
and
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chopin+scherzo+unequal+temperament interesting.

I have only been tuning the Emerson instrument for 6 months or so and it took a few concerts to understand how it behaved harmonically, so from preference I prefer the Hammerwood recordings.

I've finally tuned my trusty ancient machine
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31145314&l=298097e6c1&id=1265258549
to the temperament . . . and with this expect to have no further inharmonicity troubles. It picks out the middle octave partials of all lower strings and when I used to use this beast in equal temperament never had any troubles . . . I love the rotating phase display . . . which works like the TLA tuner. One day perhaps I might find a TLA tuner second hand - it would be so much easier to try different temperaments!

Schubert is really beautiful in UT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTGka9jFUCU
and there's beginning to be a significant corpus of repertoire to hear from Hammerwood in UT:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hammerwood+unequal+temperament
and
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hammerwood+piano

The recent concert by Paul Austin Kelly and Martin Isepp was interesting. They felt it worked very well with Haydn, Britten, and possibly Schumann but not Richard Strauss . . . (what a surprise!)
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=paul+austin+kelly+martin+isepp

In any event, whilst the musicians were not so happy with Strauss, the temperament did not cause discomfort to the audience. . .

I hope that as a result of the work that I'm doing in England with such concerts, people will enjoy performances of classical music more.

As Adolfo Barabino says, Equal Temperament is really communism among the keys . . . !

Perhaps even more interesting is a concert on an Emerich Betsy viennese instrument of 1856 with leather hammers:
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/jill-crossland-unequal-tempered-fortepiano/

The change from major to minor in
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/jil...epiano/mozart-twinkle-jill-crossland.mp3
is possibly much more emotionally effective than in Equal Temperament.

There's an interesting corpus of work here all with the Hammerwood piano in unequal temperament, recordings of items one would hardly expect to be able to hear in UT:
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/joanna-powell-cello/
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/julia-o-riodan-jennifer-carter/
http://www.jungleboffin.com/mp4/jong-gyung-park-unequal-temperament/

I hope that these recordings might stimulate debate . . .

Best wishes

David P

Last edited by Unequally tempered; 01/11/11 07:53 PM. Reason: Added information on recordings of Schubert and Haydn

_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1595605 01/11/11 08:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 732
J
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 732
Thanks for joining. And for the links. Several hours of listening, there.

I like the sound of the Emerson piano. Lots of wood in the sound. Not a modern piano sound, but that's not what Schumann wrote for.

You say that the temperament is a very standard UT. Is it a well-known temperament, or did you start with Kirnberger III or Werkmeister and then work from there, or did you just find yourself creating something that you later discovered was close to these?

A shame to hear that people sometimes object to the tuning. I'm not sure one can say that unequal temperaments are extremely popular in the US, but as people come to understand that ET wasn't the temperament used for composing most of the music in the "canon," and as people hear how the music sounds when played in a pre-ET temperament, there is more and more interest, more sharing of information, and often dispute, all of which you may find if you do a search in this forum for "temperament." Good to find you here. Looking forward to learning about your insights. I must add that I am one of the least knowledgeable and skilled people posting here, and ask that you bear with me at times.

Last edited by Jake Jackson; 01/12/11 12:38 AM.
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Unequally tempered #1595710 01/12/11 12:17 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
Originally Posted by Unequally tempered

I use a very standard unequal temperament which I believe is the strongest I can get away with in presenting classical music in all keys - and even Prokofiev doesn't mind it:
David P

There is of course no such thing as a "standard equal temperament", let alone a "very". So what is it?

Kees

Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
DoelKees #1596390 01/12/11 10:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 198
U
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
U
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 198
Hi!

I was talking to the head of Broadwoods at Finchcocks the other day generally about temperaments. They have been through many temperaments over the years and seem to think that England was veering early towards equal, although this is not my personal opinion. He quoted Handel in particular as requiring a wide variety of keys, but in truth I think that there is a lot of confusion between the contrast between Meantone and a well-temperament unequal, and the difference between well-temperament and equal. I think that many people meant by "equal" a temperament which was more equal than Meantone . . . so in fact a good well-temperament in which all keys are playable but still have an effect.

This is where building up a corpus of recordings is the only way to research - to ascertain what was written for unequal and what was not, and if not what is damaged by playing in unequal.

It's a surprise to find that Debussy, clearly written for equal, works really beautifully in unequal and this is the case for many composers. The only piece to which I have personal objections is the Brahms Waltz in A flat . . .

At Finchcocks, one recitalist doing a recording specified the Bradley Lehman so-called "Bach" temperament. In my personal opinion, this so-called authentic temperament has done a great deal of damage to the cause of unequal temperament. The Broadwood man said that at points it turned his stomach . . . .

It's not just that, it's plainly wrong - shall we say . . . misguided. Mr Lehman turned Bach's famous squiggle on the manuscript of the 48 upside down to interpret it, and the result was a solution that gave greatest key colour to the mid circle keys with 3 and 4 accidentals, which makes no musical sense.

Dr John Charles Francis has examined the squiggle the right way up and I have a lot of respect for his work:
http://www.eunomios.org/contrib/francis1/francis1.html
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/fr/Well-Tempered_Clavier
. . . but finally I have found the original work:
http://sites.google.com/site/bachtuning/bach'sharpsichordtuning
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Articles/Das_Wohltemperirte_Clavier.htm
http://www.eunomios.org/contrib/francis5/francis5.pdf

In one of his writings I saw that his derived scheme accords broadly with the tuning I use - but that's irrelevant.

One can spend a lot of time splitting hairs in unequal temperaments . . . the tunings are broadly similar but vary in degree rather than greatly in effect . . . the odd man out in this being the Lehman.

It doesn't really matter what tuning one uses as long as it fullfils a few criteria of good behaviour:
(1) The most used home, white note, keys are the purest and most harmonious
(2) The least used, remotest, black note keys are the most coloured (criteria not obeyed by upside down interpretation of Bach's squiggle)
(3) The keys present some sort of ordered kind progression from purest to coloured

Of course regional variations of preferences existed and so no one single tuning is a "right" tuning but one has to find something that behaves well and presents music nicely.

Of historical precedent of key behaviour, there are some documentary sources of which Schubart's of 1806
http://www.wmich.edu/mus-theo/courses/keys.html
is relevant to well temperaments and it's said that Mahler was familiar with these key characteristics.

So an unequal temperament should veer broadly in the characteristics suggested.

When one hears the Chopin 24 preludes, do the keys correspond to Schubart's descriptions?

Best wishes

David P


_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1596606 01/13/11 09:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 732
J
500 Post Club Member
OP Offline
500 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 732
Well, Schubart's descriptions go into mystical realms that may be out of my limited reach.

I had to look up Finchcocks to learn what it is. I wish their web site had more pictures of their collection.

I notice that Broadwood, on their web site, includes Finchcocks as part of their mailing address. Is the museum connected in some way with Broadwood? Does it house their records?

(Most of my limited knowledge of Broadwood comes from reading Ellis's addenda to his translation of Helmholtz. Given the discussion there of their research, and their history as a designer of instruments that maintained an army of tuners sent to all parts of the country, I can't help but guess that their archives might be enormously valuable for "primary sources" in studying the history of temperaments. A lifetime of study, there. Five lifetimes?)

You never told us more about the temperament you're using.

Last edited by Jake Jackson; 01/13/11 09:12 AM.
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1596616 01/13/11 09:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 198
U
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
U
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 198
Hi!

Schubart and mystical realms?

Not so sure - I think that many effects are audible . . .

Here are the recordings:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdsFLIo9l88
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A34K-fj5nHs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpqrynlohR4

This is the list of keys and key suggestions from Schubart:
1. Agitato ­ C major
Completely Pure. Its character is: innocence, simplicity, naivety, children's talk.
2. Lento ­ A minor
Pious womanliness and tenderness of character.
3. Vivace ­ G major
Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key.
4. Largo ­ E minor
Naive, womanly innocent declaration of love, lament without grumbling; sighs accompanied by few tears; this key speaks of the imminent hope of resolving in the pure happiness of C major.
5. Molto allegro ­ D major
The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing. Thus, the inviting symphonies, the marches, holiday songs and heaven-rejoicing choruses are set in this key.
6. Lento assai ­ B minor
This is as it were the key of patience, of calm awaiting ones's fate and of submission to divine dispensation.
7. Andantino ­ A major
This key includes declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one's state of affairs; hope of seeing one's beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God.
8. Molto agitato ­ F-sharp minor
A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language
9. Largo ­ E major
Noisy shouts of joy, laughing pleasure and not yet complete, full delight lies in E Major.
10. Molto allegro ­ C-sharp minor
Penitential lamentation, intimate conversation with God, the friend and help-meet of life; sighs of disappointed friendship and love lie in its radius.
11. Vivace ­ B major
Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere.
12. Presto ­ G-sharp minor
(A flat minor . . . ?) Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty.
13. Lento ­ F-sharp major
A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language.
14. Allegro ­ E-flat minor
(D sharp minor . . . . ?) Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible D# minor. If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key
15. Sostenuto ­ D-flat major ("Raindrop Prelude")
A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key.
16. Presto con fuoco ­ B-flat minor
A quaint creature, often dressed in the garment of night. It is somewhat surly and very seldom takes on a pleasant countenance. Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key.
17. Allegretto ­ A-flat major
Key of the grave. Death, grave, putrefaction, judgment, eternity lie in its radius.
18. Molto allegro ­ F minor
Deep depression, funereal lament, groans of misery and longing for the grave.
19. Vivace ­ E-flat major
The key of love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God.
20. Largo ­ C minor
Declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love. All languishing, longing, sighing of the love-sick soul lies in this key.
21. Cantabile ­ B-flat major
Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.
22. Molto agitato ­ G minor
Discontent, uneasiness, worry about a failed scheme; bad-tempered gnashing of teeth; in a word: resentment and dislike.
23. Moderato ­ F major
Complaisance & Calm.
24. Allegro appassionato ­ D minor
Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood.

I have deliberately avoided naming the temperament I use as it's so important for people to experiment.

Best wishes

David P


_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Unequally tempered #1596739 01/13/11 01:41 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
Originally Posted by Unequally tempered
Mr Lehman turned Bach's famous squiggle on the manuscript of the 48 upside down to interpret it, and the result was a solution that gave greatest key colour to the mid circle keys with 3 and 4 accidentals,

Indeed, esp. the E major third is a bit much. Still many people like it.

Kees

Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
DoelKees #1596869 01/13/11 05:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 198
U
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
U
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Unequally tempered
Mr Lehman turned Bach's famous squiggle on the manuscript of the 48 upside down to interpret it, and the result was a solution that gave greatest key colour to the mid circle keys with 3 and 4 accidentals,

Indeed, esp. the E major third is a bit much. Still many people like it.


Hi!

Yes - they might like it but it has no musical or historic precedent in the corpus of historic temperaments, nor, in the logicality of moving from most used to least used keys, any musical sense.

Sometimes discovering a "new" "revolutionary" "unique" solution to a problem merely means that it is merely the odd-man-out.

It's for this reason that the spectrum from Vallotti to Kirnberger offers a range of safe tuning schemes which, from Schubart's descriptions of keys, would not be unknown to 18th and 19th century musicians. However, I have not yet really experimented with Kirnberger yet on the fortepiano and suspect that it really might be too strong in the wilder keys.

Best wishes

David P

Last edited by Unequally tempered; 01/13/11 06:07 PM.

_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Unequally tempered #1597055 01/13/11 11:20 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
Originally Posted by Unequally tempered
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by Unequally tempered
Mr Lehman turned Bach's famous squiggle on the manuscript of the 48 upside down to interpret it, and the result was a solution that gave greatest key colour to the mid circle keys with 3 and 4 accidentals,

Indeed, esp. the E major third is a bit much. Still many people like it.


Hi!

Yes - they might like it but it has no musical or historic precedent in the corpus of historic temperaments, nor, in the logicality of moving from most used to least used keys, any musical sense.

Sometimes discovering a "new" "revolutionary" "unique" solution to a problem merely means that it is merely the odd-man-out.

It's for this reason that the spectrum from Vallotti to Kirnberger offers a range of safe tuning schemes which, from Schubart's descriptions of keys, would not be unknown to 18th and 19th century musicians. However, I have not yet really experimented with Kirnberger yet on the fortepiano and suspect that it really might be too strong in the wilder keys.

Best wishes

David P

The Lehman-Bach tuning favors flat keys over sharp keys, and I think it could be argued that that is a good thing (sharp key being associated with natural trumpets for example), or a bad thing as you seem to do.

The BL tuning seems to push the music towards flat keys, which I like quite a bit, purely personal. For Bach's music it seems appropriate. The BL can certainly not be dismissed easily.

Regarding key signature characteristics, of course there are as many opinions on this as there are musicians.

Generally I disagree with any strong opinion about which unequal temperament is "right" or "wrong". Along the line of your statement that you should "experiment yourself", so I think we agree.

I dislike Kirnberger 3 as it is too uniform (too many keys sound the same). It is however very easy to tune.

I look forward to the days when every piano tuner has a home grown temperament and the market will decide which is best. (Tongue in cheek of course.)

Kees

Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
DoelKees #1597212 01/14/11 08:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 198
U
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
U
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by DoelKees


The BL tuning seems to push the music towards flat keys, which I like quite a bit, purely personal. For Bach's music it seems appropriate. The BL can certainly not be dismissed easily.

Regarding key signature characteristics, of course there are as many opinions on this as there are musicians.

Generally I disagree with any strong opinion about which unequal temperament is "right" or "wrong". Along the line of your statement that you should "experiment yourself", so I think we agree.

I dislike Kirnberger 3 as it is too uniform (too many keys sound the same). It is however very easy to tune.



Hi!

I understand what you are saying - but bearing in mind that

  • the BL temperament was derived by turning the cypher the wrong way up, and that
  • in contrast Dr Charles Francis has derived from the cypher a very logical understanding in terms of beats per second in a practical manner very available to 18th century musicians, and that
  • such a result accords with the general principles of strongest colour in the remotest keys,

whilst the BL temperament might be "nice", it should not be regarded as any more than an interesting if pleasant curiosity.

As a physicist, one finds that generally the simplest explanations tend towards more helpful or "correct" views of the universe. The fact that a solution has been derived from turning a cypher upside down, which does not correlate to a pattern of any other established results, and that a better solution has been derived from a simple explanation of the cypher the right way up should speak for itself in the spirit of Galilleo's view of the solar system required less explanation than the view of the heavenly bodies revolving around the earth.

The "test" should be in setting out a group of pieces in each key, which both Bach and Chopin did, and to see if they "work" broadly in the spirit of the results expected as recorded by contemporary accounts, of which the best to my knoweledge is Schubart.

It would be very interesting therefore if forum members and others might be able to listen to the Chopin preludes with the Schubart descriptions in mind which I have set out above and see whether a broad correlation emerges. . . .

Of course, there being many tuning schemes with minor variations of degree, but a general thrust of increasing key colour from plain white home keys to accidentillated black remote keys we cannot expect a precise fit of exact description, but perhaps a broad thrust of correlation can be perceived?

For the reasons outlined above, the BL tuning cannot be part of this research, but any of the commonplace tunings from Vallotti to the dreaded Kirnberger are valid and I note that Dr Willis http://www.millersrus.com/dissertation/ conducted his research in a modified Werkmeister. It appears that, whilst I dislike unmodified Werkmeister for its dreadful C# G# intonation, the temperament has provided a basis for more than one researcher to approach the 19th century repertoire in this spirit.

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Unequally tempered #1597448 01/14/11 03:12 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
Originally Posted by Unequally tempered

  • the BL temperament was derived by turning the cypher the wrong way up, and that
  • in contrast Dr Charles Francis has derived from the cypher a very logical understanding in terms of beats per second in a practical manner very available to 18th century musicians, and that
  • such a result accords with the general principles of strongest colour in the remotest keys,


You of course don't really need to turn it upside down, just make the fifths go right to left. Sorry to disagree but the Francis writings smell like crackpottery to me, at the level of deriving Bach's tuning from the mordents of that C major prelude.

Regarding your third point (that I agree with), one could argue Bach was hardly a typical figure, so maybe he really wanted A and E major to sound bright.

I've read quite a bit about Lehmans interpretation, but have never seen the objection you brought out (that E is the worst key, rather than C#) discussed anywhere. If you are aware of such a discussion I'd be grateful for a pointer.

And thanks for all those interesting recordings!

Kees


Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
DoelKees #1597674 01/14/11 09:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 198
U
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
U
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by DoelKees
Regarding your third point (that I agree with), one could argue Bach was hardly a typical figure, so maybe he really wanted A and E major to sound bright.

I've read quite a bit about Lehmans interpretation, but have never seen the objection you brought out (that E is the worst key, rather than C#) discussed anywhere. If you are aware of such a discussion I'd be grateful for a pointer.



Hi!

I think Bach wanting three and four sharps to sound worst would be _extremely_ unlikely.

I have trialled LB and rejected it in early course for the reason that it doesn't do what a temperament should do in terms of providing purity where required, excitement sometimes and downright discomfort in the right ways, nor give preference to the most used keys and least to the least used keys.

A graph of Dr Francis showing thirds does demonstrate the way in which LB peaks in the mid circle keys rather than the other end.

When you look at Bach's cypher and allow the eyes to traverse the loops, at a constant speed, one does get a sense of rhythm which is indicative of the concept of beats per second in each fifth. For this reason Dr Francis makes perfect common sense.

Often one will find something that gives hints but the mordents are hardly a central plank of Dr Francis' methodology or thesis.

Having said this, I have yet to tune Dr Francis' scheme - has anyone done so?

The relevant thing however is not necessarily how Bach tuned in particular but the sort of genre of tunings which were commonplace during the history of the development of the piano and its repertoire. . . . It's this that I have tried to explore. How does it sound to critical ears?

Best wishes

David Pinnegar


_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
http://hammerwood.mistral.co.uk/tuning-seminar.pdf
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Unequally tempered #1597690 01/14/11 10:22 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
Originally Posted by Unequally tempered


I think Bach wanting three and four sharps to sound worst would be _extremely_ unlikely.

I have trialled LB and rejected it in early course for the reason that it doesn't do what a temperament should do in terms of providing purity where required, excitement sometimes and downright discomfort in the right ways, nor give preference to the most used keys and least to the least used keys.

A graph of Dr Francis showing thirds does demonstrate the way in which LB peaks in the mid circle keys rather than the other end.


The thirds look like this:
[Linked Image]
Quote

When you look at Bach's cypher and allow the eyes to traverse the loops, at a constant speed, one does get a sense of rhythm which is indicative of the concept of beats per second in each fifth. For this reason Dr Francis makes perfect common sense.

That's just speculation way beyond the facts. Traditionally the size of 5ths was specified never in beats, but in comma (Pythagorean or synthonic).
Quote

Often one will find something that gives hints but the mordents are hardly a central plank of Dr Francis' methodology or thesis.

Well Francis seems to come up with a new crackpot tuning theory every 6 months.

I found some interesting articles regarding our objection to Bach-Lehman: the worst M3 is EG#. It was brought up a lot by Lindsey in particular but Lehman's answer is that it has historical precedence in 5 of Neidhardt's published tunings.

Maybe the drawing by Bach on the cover of WTC I just meant you have to temper some fifths, some more than others, according to your personal taste.

Cheers,
Kees

Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Jake Jackson #1597999 01/15/11 12:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,018
B
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,018
I have kept mostly quiet about the Lehman temperament even though there has been much interest and fanfare about it. More than anything else, I have always found my own solutions. Also, it failed to get the endorsement of Professor Owen Jorgensen ROT, the leading researcher into the use of historical and Cycle of Fifths based temperaments. For this reason, I never looked into it. I seem to have found other ideas which at least work for me in my practice and which have caught the attention of many people in many places. The EBVT III will be presented at the next PTG convention.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
DoelKees #1598011 01/15/11 12:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,018
B
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,018
Originally Posted by DoelKees
[quote=Unequally tempered]


Maybe the drawing by Bach on the cover of WTC I just meant you have to temper some fifths, some more than others, according to your personal taste.

Cheers,
Kees


Some fifths tempered more than others is the distinction between a "regular" and "irregular" WT. The word, "irregular" has an unappealing sound to it, just as "unequal" does. Ask anybody, "Would you like your tuning to be nice, equal and regular or would you prefer it to be unequal and irregular?" and take a wild guess as to what the response would be. cool

I've explored and experimented with non-equal temperaments on modern pianos since 1985 and have made them my usual practice since 1989. Strange as it may seem, the irregular WT's (of which the EBVT III and Neidhardt's Circulating Temperament #2 are) provide far more appealing gradations of color than the regular temperaments do.

Thomas Young's #1 is often suggested as a model WT and looks great on paper with its perfect symmetry. It is, however too harsh in the remote keys for general use on the modern piano. There is also not a good and easy way to tune it which can be remembered and performed on the spot. Instead, if I want to tune an 18th Century style WT, I simply use the same sequence that I use for the EBVT and skip the step of tempering the B-flat/F fifth and leave it pure. Instead of the initial 4 rapidly beating intervals set at 6 beats per second, they are set at 4 beats per second.

It has six pure fifths and six tempered fifths as the Young does but the tempered fifths are irregular while Young's and Vallotti's are all tempered alike.

The result is quite similar color to Young's but it ends up being a Young/Werkmeister composite and is irregular rather than regular. It is so easy to tune that I can whip it on a piano, F3-F4 in about 2 minutes with perfect consistency from one attempt to the next every time. I never forget the sequence, so I never have to look it up. I can do it literally at the drop of a hat.



Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Some sweet video's: an older piano tuned to an Unequal Temp
Unequally tempered #1598278 01/15/11 08:52 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2,515
David,

If I follow your reasoning and read the Bach scribble left to right, assuming the double loops are twice as tempered as the single, and placing them between the "white keys fifths" FC CG GD DA AE (necessary to get the best M3's there) I indeed get a much nicer temperament, somewhat like a milder version of Werckmeister III. Below the interval diagram. Now C# major is the worst key, not E major, as it should.
[Linked Image]
I tuned my piano in it, it's somewhat similar to Bach-Lehman without the offensive M3's on A and E. (And just as easy to tune aurally.)

Great suggestion, I'm convinced, thanks a lot for bringing it up!

Best,
Kees

Page 1 of 10 1 2 3 9 10

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Our October 2020 Free Piano Newsletter is Here!
---------------------
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Mixing VST audio with external hardware audio
by Andrew_G - 11/28/20 02:42 AM
File, sand and/or needle inside my Baldwin?
by DanD - 11/28/20 01:18 AM
Hybrid piano too loud for my neighbor :(
by kiwibd - 11/27/20 07:19 PM
White noise
by QuasarPiano - 11/27/20 05:40 PM
Im Strolling Along With You
by Claude56 - 11/27/20 05:12 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics203,088
Posts3,027,989
Members99,391
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4