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#1590792 - 01/04/11 11:35 PM I'll be doing a Music Sorb test  
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Loren D Offline
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At one of the colleges I tune for, there is a practice room that has two identical Boston uprights in it. The seasonal pitch fluctuation of the two pianos is pretty much identical (30c flat by January, 30c sharp end of August). I'm going to put Music Sorb in one of them at the onset of the humid season this spring during the last batch of tunings. When I come back the following late August/early September, I'll check and see if the one with Music Sorb is any less sharp. I figure it should be a fairly accurate test since the pianos are identical model and age, and are both in the same room. Should be interesting!


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#1590805 - 01/04/11 11:54 PM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Supply Offline
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Sounds like a great opportunity to collect some data for comparison. Any chance you could put one of those humidity data loggers in one of the pianos? That would make the whole experiment much more valuable.

#1590808 - 01/04/11 11:56 PM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Thats a good idea, thanks!


DiGiorgi Piano Service
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#1590839 - 01/05/11 01:29 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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rysowers Offline
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Awesome idea! I'd love to see the data! I would be very surprised if there was much difference in the pianos. I just can't imagine Musicsorb could take enough moisture out of the air to make a dent in the soundboard's EMC.

I'll try to keep an open mind though...

Thanks for being our "Mythbuster"!


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
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#1590943 - 01/05/11 07:50 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Thanks, Ryan! I'm just curious, so I figure I have a fairly decent control situation (though by no means scientific), so why not? If Music Sorb DOES help in low-to-moderate humidity fluctuations, then it's probably worth it to add to our list of things to provide to customers.

Maybe in a home that has AC and a whole house humidifer, Music Sorb would give an added layer to help smooth things out between the seasons.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
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#1591196 - 01/05/11 03:13 PM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Hi Loren,

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that MusicSorb might of "some" benefit. After all, it's not unusual for a new piano to be shipped with desiccant bags.

My suspicion is that MusicSorb will tend to slow down the transition from humid to dry and vice versa. Though not as good as a D-C system (because there is a limit as to how much moisture MusicSorb can absorb or give off), it might at least slow down the effect on the soundboard from sudden changes.

Edit: It might be more effective at stabilizing the piano from day to day variations rather than from season to season.

Last edited by daniokeeper; 01/05/11 03:25 PM.

Joe Gumbosky
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#1591240 - 01/05/11 04:30 PM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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My understanding is the desiccant bags are for condensation in shipping overseas. The pianos are sealed up and the bags are designed to absorb moisture only. Very different application.

I'm looking forward to the data. My prediction is that Musicsorb will be shown to be useless. How much water can a Kleenex box worth of pellets hold? When I had a dehumidifier running in my shop, I would empty almost a gallon of water out a day from that thing! Musicsorb could maybe hold a pint?

I attended a presentation on Musicsorb years ago, and was told that it was origianlly designed for museum exhibits and art that are sealed. It makes sense in that application, but a piano is completely different.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#1591663 - 01/06/11 07:53 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Ryan, some crystals are pretty technologically advanced. Look at those newer cat litter pellets, for example, that hold like 100X their weight in water, etc...

Now of course, it's not going to be as effective as room humidity control; that's a given. I"m still curious to see if it makes some difference, though. Who knows, you may be right!


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
#1592470 - 01/07/11 10:30 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Loren, I did something similar to this test a few years back. I have two small G. Heintzman spinets that are identical in the same room of my home. Being a gun collector, I had purchased 5 lbs of bead silica gel dessicant (reactivatable) for my gun safes and took some of it to put inside one of the spinets. I did this in the summer where our humidity goes fairly high in this area. Normally both of these pianos went sharp of 440 about 15-20 cents during the summer. I used two small containers of dessicant in one, with about 8 oz of dessicant in each and it did nothing to change the pitch rise. When I doubled up the amount I noticed a small decrease in the rise. I gave up on the experiment because I could not spare any more to see if the results would improve.

My conclusions were that the structure of the piano was not tight enough to make full use of the dessicants abilities. Since then I put a DC system in one of the pianos and it very easily handles the humidity swings with far less hassle than having to recharge the dessicant beads every 2 weeks. I also figure that the soundboard has two sides to it and with my set up I was only reducing humidity exposure to one side. I still dont understand how the DC system is so effective with the same one sided exposure.


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George Brown College /85
Niagara Region
#1628578 - 02/26/11 03:27 PM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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I"m getting ready to contact a distributor to get what I need for the experiment. The only thing I haven't decided yet is if I'm going to do the experiment on grands or verticals. At the college I'm going to do the test in, I have two different control rooms I can choose from. One has two verticals, the other two Steinway grands (one a B, the other an L).


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#1628582 - 02/26/11 03:40 PM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Please, do both! But if you only can do one set, I vote for the uprights. Since most pianos we service are uprights and because it is more likely to work in an upright since they are more enclosed than a grand.

Tell us more about how you plan to run your experiment. thumb

It would be really great to put a USB data logger in each piano to take humidity measurements:
http://www.microdaq.com/lascar/humidity/usb-humidity-logger.php

Good luck with the experiment. I'm looking forward to the results!

Last edited by rysowers; 02/26/11 03:40 PM.

Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
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#1628588 - 02/26/11 03:47 PM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Thanks Ryan! I agree with you about the verticals vs grands.

Here's the plan. A practice room in the lower level at one of the colleges I service has two identical Boston uprights. These pianos were bought at the same time and are the exact same model. They're about 7 years old. When I go in in late August to tune, I'll find the tenor sections of these things 30-40 cents sharp, and just as flat by the time January hits. What I plan on doing it equipping one with Music Sorb and leaving them through the summer, after which I can note the difference when I go back in for the fall round of tunings.

Not exactly scientific, but I think it helps that the control pianos are the same make, model, and age, and are in the same room.

I'm interested in the results! I'm always looking for ways to minimize the effects of the humidity swings here, and I think Music Sorb looks promising. Certainly better than no control at all, and better than the mason jar full of water in the bottom of the piano. :p Oh wait, most of those only contain dust any more...


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#1628744 - 02/26/11 07:06 PM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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go with the verticals


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#1628899 - 02/27/11 01:00 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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@Loren: Go for it - by all means, I would think anybody here would be most interested in a "hands-on" research like yours.

As for dampp-chasers there is probably a lot of field response already, but I've had a chance to monitor a few almost identical grands side by side, tuned by me, one dampp-chasered, the other one without humidity control. There is a huge difference on both ends, during peak humidity (85%) as well as during extreme dryness (<15%). If anybody's interested I will dwell further on this.

Last edited by pppat; 02/27/11 01:01 AM.

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#2083434 - 05/16/13 12:36 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Hi Loren,

Were you able to run your tests? If so, what were the results?

Thanks,
-Joe


Joe Gumbosky
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#2083455 - 05/16/13 01:33 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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http://musicsorbonline.com/product/music_sorb_brochure.pdf

This brochure from their website explains that the MusicSorb also release moisture, targeting a 40-60 Rh in the piano. Regular dessicants only pull the moisture...and run out of room! It seems like the idea is a good one....but I would dearly like to hear how the results of your test came out, Loren.

Wassup? Got any news for us?

Trembling with,
antici--------pation!
I am,


Jeffrey T. Hickey, RPT
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#2083469 - 05/16/13 02:14 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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I bet you could get silica gel packets from other suppliers for much less expense.


Semipro Tech
#2083476 - 05/16/13 02:30 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: BDB]  
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From the brochure:
Music Sorb should be replaced at least once a year to retain the effectiveness of the product. The
manufacturer will stand behind the effectiveness of
Music Sorb for one year from product opening.
[Emphasis added]


Quite interesting! There is a warranty as to its effectiveness.


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
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#2083479 - 05/16/13 02:44 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Obviously the test is as stale as this thread.

Is Loren D still around?


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2083491 - 05/16/13 03:35 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Obviously the test is as stale as this thread.

Is Loren D still around?


He was just on here a few days ago.

Sometimes, stuff just comes up. Maybe there was some reason he was not able to complete the test.

For myself, I resurrected this thread after seeing the my idea of treating the soundboard with M****k's did not work.

I am just looking for alternatives for clients that cannot afford a D-C system. I remembered this thread. The thing about tests like this is that they really can take years to generate useful data.

So, I figured I'd ask how things went, or, if the test is finished yet.


Joe Gumbosky
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#2083537 - 05/16/13 06:52 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Hi everyone. Yes I'm here, but the test (among a lot of other things!) got sidetracked last year when my dad was ill and I was taking care of him.

Thanks for reminding me! I'm going to order some and give it a shot.


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#2083538 - 05/16/13 06:53 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: BDB]  
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Originally Posted by BDB
I bet you could get silica gel packets from other suppliers for much less expense.


No doubt, but MusicSorb is patented in that it also releases moisture during dry seasons (so they claim).


DiGiorgi Piano Service
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#2083634 - 05/16/13 11:14 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Originally Posted by Loren D
Originally Posted by BDB
I bet you could get silica gel packets from other suppliers for much less expense.


No doubt, but MusicSorb is patented in that it also releases moisture during dry seasons (so they claim).


That is what all silica gel packets do.


Semipro Tech
#2083636 - 05/16/13 11:26 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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It is actually what the wood structure of the piano does too. The wood releases moisture during the dry season and takes it up during the damp season. That's why the "scientific" test shown on the website is completely useless:
[Linked Image]
As you can see, it shows that the humidity inside the piano is more stable than the humidity outside the piano, but you would get the same results with any piano. The test would be more compelling if they had also checked the same piano the next year with no Musicsorb.

As it stands, this is exactly the same kind of snake-oil salesmanship that goes on all the time in the health and wellness industry and multi-level marketing schemes.

Personally I think the product name should be changed to more accurately reflect the nature of the product:
Money$orb


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#2083639 - 05/16/13 11:32 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Silica gel is a desiccant only. It will only release moisture with heat processing.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2575436 - 10/01/16 08:40 PM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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Just wondering if anything ever came of the Music Sorb test? I see they still sell the stuff on the internet. I have a client who recently scheduled a tuning. I had recommended a Dampp-chaser basic system but she claimed she has something else that she found online. I'm wondering if it is Music Sorb. Or it could be moisture king. I'll find out soon enough!


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
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#2576700 - 10/06/16 06:44 PM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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I use it a lot and yes, there's a nice profit margin ;-) But, it does work if, like Dampp-Chaser, it's used properly. I have two large older grands I service and what I've done is seal up the string area with weather stripping. Both pianos are very stable now. Other pianos have varying results, just like DC. Here's the main advantages as I see it. 1. Nothing to plug in. Many of these pianos are moved a lot and they would never stay plugged in. 2. Nothing to check or refill. People don't want another thing to do. 3. Well, it works...

I service pianos with active DC systems and I find no better results than MusicSorb. In fact if I were to go strictly by the results I've witnessed MusicSorb comes out on top.


Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
#2576744 - 10/06/16 10:22 PM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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What I can't wrap my brain around Scott, is how can those little granules possibly hold enough moisture to effectively dehumidify the piano? Also how can they release enough moisture to properly humidify the belly in winter? I have to fill my DC tank at least once every two weeks in the winter. Seems like you'd have to pour some water in your Music Sorb to keep it active throughout the entire winter.

Thanks for the anecdotal evidence, though. It sounds like you are sold on it. How often do you change it?


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
#2576845 - 10/07/16 09:54 AM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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You raise good questions Ryan. There are 2 "cassettes" that are installed & 3 in larger pianos. They're pretty large and I suspect hold more moisture than you'd think. They should be changed once a year. One cycle of soaking up then releasing. Even if it doesn't work as well as DC it's got to be better than nothing, which is what most of these pianos would have.

I've been wondering, what do you charge to service a DC system in a grand? How often? I've serviced a few and it's pain in the neck. That alone makes MusicSorb look pretty good! wink


Scott Kerns
"That Tuning Guy"
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
#2576887 - 10/07/16 12:09 PM Re: I'll be doing a Music Sorb test [Re: Loren D]  
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I usually don't charge any money to service the DC system, other than the cost of replacing the pads. I encourage clients to run distilled water if they have the tank and that can extend the life of the pads considerably. The company recommends replacing the pads every 6 months, but with distilled water you can go two years. That's my experience, but its always safest to go with the company's recommendations.

The main issue with the tanks is to install them so that it can be easy to lower to the ground for servicing. That means being a little thoughtful with the management of the cords so that they don't interfere.

Luckily, in my climate we mostly install the base system without the humidifier. Its rare to see below 40% around here, and when it does get lower it is fairly temporary.

Here is an experiment Scott: Put a Music Sorb cartridge in a closed cardboard box with an open quart container of water and see how long it takes the Music Sorb to completely take up the water.


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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