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Joined: Dec 2010
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The religious attacks; don't feed the trolls. In case you missed my edit--- because of the sudden surge in comments... I never attacked anyone's religion... go back and read it! I recited history. I did not speak to anyone's current religion, but of a period of time that is taught to each of us in History class...Is the history teacher attacking the Roman Catholic Church? No. I wasn't even using it in a religious context- but that of mind-sets (thinking). You can all scream and yell and carry on as much as you wish from this point on. I hope that tempers simmer down in the end and people will examine what I actually said.
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 961
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Rick,
FWIW I'm sure most are certainly willing to grant the benefit of the doubt, but when you used a church's distant history to validate your point that some here are (in your view) blindly following the Dampp Chaser corporate jargon, its just objectionable on its face; you tend to diminish your point and lose your audience.
With respect, I have found that most of the folks who post here are extremely intelligent and insightful. We disagree from time to time, but your post sounded like you were talking down to the forum. Again, benefit of the doubt granted.
There is much in your thesis that makes sense. I'm sure if you used your detailed church reference to bolster a positive point you were making, your simile would have been met with more support.
Even with benefit of the doubt, its pretty clear that you are a critic of, and not a supporter of that particular church, and that's probably just too much irrelevant information for a technical forum.
RPD
MPT(Master Piano Technicians of America) Member AMICA (Automated Musical Instruments Collector's Association) (Subscriber PTG Journal) Piano-Tuner-Rebuilder/Musician www.actionpianoservice.com DEALER Hailun Pianos
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Joined: May 2010
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My intent by sharing the MusicSorb product was just to add more information to the conversation. Gee, sounds like there is a competitor to DC...I didn't know that before. Also, it sounds like is is endorsed by at least one PTG member...that means something to me. And finally, they did some testing. One test is one test. I didn't say it was the end all...just one more test than DC offers on their website.
I have been very consistent throughout my postings. You share your experience, I've shared mine. I've done some quantitative testing. You, and others, have many many years of hands-on experience and shared your opinions.
Has anyone ever thought for a second that maybe we are all correct? The systems typically work great but sometimes don't. I'm trying to figure out when they work great and when they don't. I have an example of my piano where it didn't work great and I'm trying to get it to work great and having a lot of success. I would think that this might be valuable information for installers, customers and Dampp Chaser.
I think the breakdown is with the debating style. People have to separate a critique on their opinions to a critique on their character or credibility. When someone challenged my testing method...I improved my testing method. That's all. I bought a more accurate hygrometer, I retested my tests, and would be open to many other ideas as to how to improve the quality of my testing. So far, I don't think I've been offered any suggestions
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Joined: Jun 2010
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No, not consistent. You are willing to accept company A's own testing, but discard company b's testing as invalid because it wasn't carried out by an independent third party. Or maybe that's Rick; I get the two of you confused any more. Speaking of which, DC's tests are also available, as was mentioned earlier in this thread.
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Joined: Jun 2010
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I have nothing more to say-- anyone looking at this post will see what is going on here. You can say that again!
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Joined: Jun 2010
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Might I remind people that history went through a period of time when Biblical "Opinion" was said to be "Truth". 'The Dark Ages'-- when Catholic Priests held the keys {people not even allowed to have a bible); while they taught their "opinions" as Truth...a time that still has not been overcome to this day.
A time that still has not been overcome to this day? Saying you don't see how that could be seen as disparaging to Catholics (I'm not one) would strain anyone's credulity.
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Joined: May 2010
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Loren. You need to pay more attention to what I write. If you think I said something then quote it and please don't confuse my posts with someone elses. I don't appreciate you saying I wrote something that I didn't.
For the 3rd time, I didn't accept MicroSorb's claims as true...just one test. I shared it with everyone just to bring out all the testing that is available on any system.
Also, the test that DC offered concluded among other things that in an extreme condition, the DC didn't work as claimed by DC. This was the Roger Jolly study. Read the study yourself because I don't want to interpret it for you. This too, is just one test and I'm not saying it is the end all....just one test that should be repeated, peer reviewed, altered, and improved.
There isn't a debate going on anymore...just two parallel conversations. It's a shame...it's a waste of smart, experienced people's time.
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Joined: Nov 2008
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.....
There isn't a debate going on anymore...just two parallel conversations. It's a shame...it's a waste of smart, experienced people's time.
Then consider starting a new Topic. You seem to have solved the immediate problem that this Topic asked help for.
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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UnrightTooner, you're right. This thread has morphed into another topic of conversation. I think I'm going to lay low for while before I start anymore topics.  I wanted to share my findings to help improve the available test data but I think it has just polarized people and upset a lot of people. Not my original intent.
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Rick, Just a friendly tip... You'll never get in to trouble around here by staying directly on topic. In the past, I too have gone over the top on other forums on irrelevant side issues. I should not have. But I've tried to learn from it. -Joe
Last edited by daniokeeper; 12/23/10 11:25 AM.
Joe Gumbosky Piano Tuning & Repair www.morethanpianos.com (semi-retired) "The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane." -Marcus Aurelius
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Speaking of which, DC's tests are also available, as was mentioned earlier in this thread. Bit of an exaggeration, isn't it? There seems to be only one test, and that link is password protected.
gotta go practice
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Joined: Jun 2010
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Is it unavailable? Seems it's been mentioned here that it was supplied on request.
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Joined: May 2001
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I repeated some earlier testing to make sure it wasn't a fluke. Here are my findings and they are consistent with previously.
1. I plugged my humidifier in directly and it went from 36% to 48% in about 1.5 days. This makes it clear to me that the humidifier is big enough to do the job and get the humidity above the 46% threshold for the dehumidifier to kick in.
2. I then removed the pipe insulation sealing the gap and the humdity started plummeting. 47,46,45,44,43% in about 5 minutes. I didn't want to let it go further so I stopped it at that point. This solidifies my conclusion that sealing the gap is the biggest improvement I could make. This intuitively makes sense and is consistent with Roger Jolly's testing if you agree that sealing the gap on a vertical piano is analogous to an undercover on a grand.
3. Now I am retesting the second humidistat DC sent me to see if it is calibrated differently than the first one. The first one seems to be calibrated from 37% - 33%. Ideally, it should be calibrated from 46% - 38%. (Note that my hygrometer is accurate to +/- 2%)
I think my conditions are pretty extreme with an ambient RH of 23% so in other installations, the sealed gap might not be as important.
If I decide I'm good with the 37% - 33% range, then the question will be how effective is the dehumidifier in the summer when I have ~65% humidity and 75 degrees F. If the dehumidifer can get it to the same range (37% - 33%) my pitch should be really good. However, if the dehumifier can only get it down to 50% then it might be off a bit. This is why it is important for me to get the humidity in the winter up to 42% because it is roughly the midpoint of my conditions. I'm still curious to see you test the humidity near the top of the piano, and, for that matter, in other places other than just on the side of the humidistat. I don't believe Dampp-Chaser claims 42% humidity at the humidistat. You'll probably get different results depending on where you place the hygrometer.
Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York
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