Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Need help troubleshooting my Dampp Chaser system

I'm not impressed unless he is in perfect pitch during all four seasons. The curious side of me wonders how it would be affected by his level of perspiration. I may start a new thread at www.armpitmusicworld.com to find out.

I know a guy over there who can play some Rachmaninoff pieces arranged for armpit like you woudn't believe.

As the competition in armpit music has increased, so has the temptation to cheat. Here are some inspectors looking for hidden speakers before an international armpit music festival:

I have been working on pianos for 30+ years and have installed many systems. I don't see a need to experiment with the system, because I see the result each year when I return to tune the pianos. Some people cannot accept the results in the field as proof the systems work, maybe they are unable to follow the instructions that come with systems and can't get the same results. The system needs to be left along for it, to do its job, but for some people this doesn't seem to be option. To bad the major piano manufacturer like Yamaha, Steinway, Kawai etc. recommendations don't count for some close minded people.But being the business for only 30 years I guess new comers know more than I.

What I sometimes tell folks is:

"The reason you spent all that money is specifically so that you DON'T have to get all involved in controlling the piano's humidity. It's an automatic system. You only need to change the pads occasionally and add water when the light blinks. That's it."

The OP does live in an exceptional climate. My own recommendation is this:

1) Since you are concerned about low humidity, purchase a room humidifier and run it in addition to the Dammp-Chaser. You can purchase units that have their own built-in humidistats. Set it somewhere between 40% to 45% and the leave it plugged in 24/7/365. Do not aim it at the piano.

2) Install a back cover.

3) Stop removing that bottom panel. Allow the Dammp-Chaser to slowly, carefully establish its own little micro-climate over a period of weeks inside the piano. There is a reason that the humidifier is low power. They could just as easily manufacture a higher power unit.

4) Rest easy and enjoy your piano. Take comfort in knowing that your instrument is now triply protected. We live in an imperfect world and you will have done all that reasonably can be done.

Wasm't trying to brag on my experience Mr. Groot... Sorry if you took it that way. I was trying to just demonstrate that it was not DCB who was calling D-C into question- but, rather me...
And I do know that I am not as experienced as a lot of you here in the forum. I do respect my elder professional's opinions- contrary to what you claim here (as I was taught from my youth to honor my elders)... But, sir- am I to take this as meaning that I am not allowed to have a differing viewpoint?
If you will recall- all I have done is ask for the company's proof. I understand that a lot of you have an aproval for this system--- I have NEVER questioned your findings, except to say it is not proof that my concerns are unwaranted.

That was an impressive family history--- but, sir, I am afraid that this still does not change what I see, and what I am concerned about.
With all due respect, 100+ years (1,000 years)-- it is still all opinion until proven.

As I said-- I am done with the debate until there is something more substantial that can be added... Family historys, experiences, and all such could be discussed for a very long time...and we would all still end up where we were at the start.
Again- thanks for hearing me out.


---- EDIT---- proof of my status as newcomer- don't know how to use the edit buttons LOL----- don't know if you can read the edit below DCB-- but, thanks for bringing this up (meant to say that in goodbye for now)...It's been interesting, even if unsettled as yet.

Rick,

A differing view point is one thing. Taking colleagues views, advice and experience on multiple Dampp Chaser systems and then poo pooing them as basically meaningless without further proof, is another thing and well, rather silly to me. Other colleagues views, advice and experience on something is also a part of our learning. Ignoring this by saying makes no sense to me. Rick, experience in something = stats. Not everything has to be proven or put into writing. Sometimes, a persons experience with something is proof enough.

I would advise you to try letting the wisdom and experience of others in here teach you something. It will be of much greater value to you in the long run.

Generational history is meaningless unless something worth while is taught and passed onto others. We then, pass our experience and knowledge onto the next generation of technicians. That is, provided they are willing to listen and learn. However, If one technician will not accept what other "elder more experienced" colleagues have to say about something without "more proof" then it is highly likely that person may be totally on their own if they were to ask others for advice on anything else in the future.

I discovered a product called Music Sorb.
www.musicsorbonline.com

Here is an excerpt from thier website.
"Music Sorb is a synthetic silica gel product developed by chemical engineers in Japan to help moderate and control the relative humidity (%RH) inside a given area, such as inside your piano or musical instrument case."

I like their website because it has their test results from testing. If I knew this product existed, I might have bought it instead of a DC. Of course ideally, someone would test both products and see which one worked the best.

I also discovered a piano technician named Mark Gallant in Oregon who is also a member of the PTG. You may not approve of him because he had done some testing on the musicsorb product and I found a presentation he gave. Here it is.

http://www.oppor-tune-ist.com/page/Humidity%20Control%20Alternatives_files/frame.htm#slide0006.htm

It looks like he might be suggesting that MusicSorb might be a good alternative to a DC and easier to install (5 minute installation)

What seems nice about MusicSorb is it is maintenance free and non electric. It's pretty interesting.

He states in his presentation notes that he thinks that technically the DC should do a better job but I don't know if he has tested it (couldn't find those tests) or if it was based on DC's claims.

I may call him up to talk to him. I like the fact that he is a guild member but also has some interest in controlled testing and thoughtful analysis. He might be an interesting person to add to the discussion.

By the way, I apologize if I'm telling you things that you already know.

Again- (and this is a pretty scary mind-set being revealed)- I did not do what you say... I merely asked for verification of the opinions and claims with 'proof'.

Might I remind people that history went through a period of time when Biblical "Opinion" was said to be "Truth". 'The Dark Ages'-- when Catholic Priests held the keys {people not even allowed to have a bible); while they taught their "opinions" as Truth...a time that still has not been overcome to this day.

We went through a time when men believed the world was flat- and a contrary view was insane (heresy in fact)...many elders agreed (though the Bible itself proves it is round Isaiah 40:22). And they scoffed at the man who held an opinion that it 'was round' and who wanted to prove it...

Group persecution has always been directed at the dissenting voice of opinion.
I am afraid that your mode of thinking is basically the same here. You basically say by this, 'young man, put away what you see and are worried about, and trust us'. And you offer your experience as proof. I respect your experience, but differ in my opinion of what the long term affects could be with this system.

Long experience means your opinions should hold more weight--- BUT, it does not make people automatically right. As the scripture says, "I said, Days should speak, and multitude of years should teach wisdom. But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding. Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment."

You also present to me that- IF I do not accept it:


I hope you can truly see what you ARE saying here.

Am I truly and justly to be ostracized- for holding an opposite "opinion". NOW- IF you would present FACT, then I agree- I should be ostracized if I did not accept that...

Again- to understand the difference between Truth and Opinion based on experience makes a huge difference in what our experience teaches us in the end.

NOW- IF I find an 'elder' that proves that he is seeking the truth- and treats opinions with a decent respect (no matter who presents it)-- it is that person I want to find and follow advice from. I had two when I was learning. Both the rebuilder I trained under (Roger, a PTG member himself), and my dad, were both very respectable in this area.
I miss them both.

I will say that typed words do not always come across as we mean them--- I want to be clear-- I respect your experience… I would like to have that history myself- it is honorable. But, history and experience (as history has proven) does not mean a person is automatically right.

Yes, I most certainly can see what I am saying... And I said it with some thought. But, you obviously can't see it and what's worse, is that you refuse to see it. Sad... The only proof that is good enough for you is stats on paper not words of experience or experience with installed units. You obviously have very little to NO experience with these units.

My college has LOTS of these units on pianos. They went from horrible pitch swings to barely ANY pitch swings. From being continually out of tune with our major weather swings to barely out of tune a month or 3 months later. That's proof. Oh, sorry, it's not on paper... Guess that won't work......

Ahhhhh forget it. You're to stubborn and pig headed.... Enjoy yourself in here... I'm done helping you or giving you any advice on anything in here period.

Musicsorb. (sigh). Talk about lack of scientific research behind a product! I've never seen anything that would make me think that a piano with Musicsorb is any more stable then a piano with nothing at all.

I used to run a dehumidifier in my shop in an effort to keep the humidity at the mid 40 percent level. Every other day I would empty at least a gallon of water out of that thing. It became too much! So I gave up and stopped worrying so much (after all I live in one of the mildest climates in the country: The Pacific NW!). There is just no possible way Musicsorb can suck up enough H2O to get the RH down to the desired level. No way, no how.

It is MUCH more efficient to use the air itself as a drying agent by lowering its RH and moving it around. Much, much, more efficient. Maybe if you filled the entire inside of the cabinet with Musicsorb you might get some results, but then you'd really be "sorbing" the music!

Musicsorb (or the product that it comes from) was originally designed for using inside sealed cases for museum artifacts. In a sealed environment it might make sense. So perhaps using plenty of music sorb and then completely wrapping the piano in plastic wrap could be an effective solution. Of course it doesn't make playing the piano very convenient.

I was shown a "scientific looking" chart that showed fluctuating room humidity and then showed how the humidity inside the piano with Musicsorb fluctuated less. But there was no comparison to the inside of a piano without Musicsorb?! No control makes the "experiment" worthless. In fact worse than worthless because it's trying to make a case for something that can't physically work, and a few people buy into it.

Looks like Jerry needs a chill pill!

Do we really have to put down other folks' religions? This is a technical forum.

Btw, before the printing press, Bibles were hand copied... very labor intensive. Bibles were quite expensive and not as easily available.

I have not read the latest banter. It is always the same problem. Who is right verses what is right.

No one is being "ridiculed" or "targeted" as far as I am concerned. Just trying to interject a little fun and humor, which this conversation could certainly use. That's why I included the emoticon after my "initial" guesses. Hey, a pun!

This thread started out by asking professional techs to help troubleshoot a new DC install. But what it really has been is a forum to challenge the advertising claims and effectiveness of the Dampp-Chaser product.

That's why so many techs have jumped in, and a lot of great information and experience has been imparted to anyone following the thread.

I see the forest for the trees, and a stable piano is my goal. The proof is in the pitch...

Have a great holiday everyone...

I'm with Joe here...lets not slip in collattoral attacks on religious grounds. Its shows us in a poor light, and its simply unfair to all the good folks who practice that particular faith.

RPD

Has Musicsorb a 60 year track record? Independent tests? I'm curious why Musicsorb's testing by a tech who sells it carries weight, while the same from Dampp Chaser is cast aside. A valid question, I think. If you're going to have an opinion about the reliability of internal test results, at least be consistent about it.

I only say this, so that I can make it clear that I am not speaking from nothing (I do NOT care to compare experience history)--- I do have experience- having worked for 7 years under a PTG employer in MD and the DC area...where I installed (according to directions was a major focus there) these systems many times, and upkept them for the customers...

Stubborn and pig-headed and closed-minded... I will not respond to the name calling.

And- no more help or assistance from you--- I'm sorry you feel that way about this...but I think we are both better off for that decision, if this is the way you feel about things.

James, sorry if I took your humor as being serious.

I have nothing more to say-- anyone looking at this post will see what is going on here.

--------EDIT----
I was not attacking anyone's religion-- I was reciting history... Those things actually happened- and I am beginning to think are not too far from happening again!
I in no way referred to anyone's current religious practices--- my comment about the world suffering still from that period was meant to invoke thought toward why there are so many religions now out there all based on opinion rather than fact and truth...much as this forum.
I understand this is a technical forum- yet, comparing a mind-set to that of dark ages mentality IS NOT talking religion is it?

I haven't weighed in here on Dampp Chasers. But I feel I should.

My experience with installing the units here in Michigan is that the pianos are WAY more stable pitch-wise. Jerry's comments are echoed almost exactly in my experience; that is, in my decades working on specific pianos here we have found that the Dampp Chaser system corrects the extreme swings in RH.

Now, does that pass muster as a scientific study or argument? I suppose I really don't care, since almost everything in piano science is anecdotal anyway...i.e. which temperment sounds better, how often should a piano be tuned, heavy action vs. responsive, grand vs. upright, etc etc.

Dampp Chasers make a GREAT case for themselves in much more stable pianos for my customers. Honestly, installing them is not my favorite activity...so although there is a profit margin, at 6-7 pianos average per day tuning I'd gladly stop selling/installing/servicing the things if they didn't work.

Again, many of the techs who have reported here are taking the long view, after decades of observation. Their wisdom is worth noting.

RPD

I repeated some earlier testing to make sure it wasn't a fluke. Here are my findings and they are consistent with previously.

1. I plugged my humidifier in directly and it went from 36% to 48% in about 1.5 days. This makes it clear to me that the humidifier is big enough to do the job and get the humidity above the 46% threshold for the dehumidifier to kick in.

2. I then removed the pipe insulation sealing the gap and the humdity started plummeting. 47,46,45,44,43% in about 5 minutes. I didn't want to let it go further so I stopped it at that point. This solidifies my conclusion that sealing the gap is the biggest improvement I could make. This intuitively makes sense and is consistent with Roger Jolly's testing if you agree that sealing the gap on a vertical piano is analogous to an undercover on a grand.

3. Now I am retesting the second humidistat DC sent me to see if it is calibrated differently than the first one. The first one seems to be calibrated from 37% - 33%. Ideally, it should be calibrated from 46% - 38%. (Note that my hygrometer is accurate to +/- 2%)

I think my conditions are pretty extreme with an ambient RH of 23% so in other installations, the sealed gap might not be as important.

If I decide I'm good with the 37% - 33% range, then the question will be how effective is the dehumidifier in the summer when I have ~65% humidity and 75 degrees F. If the dehumidifer can get it to the same range (37% - 33%) my pitch should be really good. However, if the dehumifier can only get it down to 50% then it might be off a bit. This is why it is important for me to get the humidity in the winter up to 42% because it is roughly the midpoint of my conditions.

Once this last test with humidistat #2 is complete, my testing should be complete until summer.

I found rysowers' critique of the MicroSorb product interesting. He stated that there was no control...I agree. I do applaud MicroSorb for publishing any testing when DC has not. Also, one might predict that a piano without MicroSorb's internal RH% would gain equilibrium with the RH outside the piano. I don't know this is for sure but I could test it. It would be very easy to test. Maybe someone without a DC installed could take the reading inside and outside to confirm. If my prediction is true, than maybe MicroSorb's "scientific looking" data chart might be something to consider as possible.

I sure hope everyone still shares knowledge with people regardless of their opinions. If all my mentors, teachers, and elders stopped teaching me things when I challenged their opinion I don't think I would have advanced past a kindergarten education. With no mentors or teachers I would be forced to take my own opinions as the only ones and I think I would be very close-minded.

The religious attacks; don't feed the trolls.