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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
Mark_C #1580347 12/20/10 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by charleslang
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Well, since he comes from Poland he probably has more personal family history with a bordering country that took up residence in his native land....
A history of being conquered by other countries is no excuse....

It may or may not be an excuse, depending on what we mean by that, but it's a reason.


It alone is no explanation for his behavior; most people from Poland are not bigoted like that, of course.

It may be one of several factors that contributed to his behavior. As for the others, my claim has been that one of them is his own moral failing. As an internationally successful artist he has had every opportunity to avoid this kind of situation. He failed. That is the sense in which I mean his background is "no excuse" (actually this was clear in my earlier post).

I would be crazy not to accept that he could repair his moral standing by apologizing. I would be happy to forgive him. But he did the wrong thing.


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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
Kuanpiano #1580359 12/20/10 01:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Kuanpiano
^^ make that 'it's annoying when ANYBODY starts tackling politics....it's an ugly zone.


Replace 'ANYBODY' with 'forum members'. This thread should be shut down before it's too late.


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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
Orange Soda King #1580360 12/20/10 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Same thing happened to Jack Gibbons a couple times, and here's a blog by him talking about it: http://jackgibbons.blogspot.com/2010/03/zimermans-anti-american-tirade.html


Jack Gibbon's post is extremely sensible.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
Mattardo #1580361 12/20/10 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mattardo

Anyways, the point I was making is that it's silly to bite the hand that feeds. I hope that clarified things...
Since we are apparently simply re-stating points, if the "hand that feeds" is holding a knife, then what?


(I'm a piano teacher.)
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
liszt85 #1580391 12/20/10 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by liszt85
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Same thing happened to Jack Gibbons a couple times, and here's a blog by him talking about it: http://jackgibbons.blogspot.com/2010/03/zimermans-anti-american-tirade.html


Jack Gibbon's post is extremely sensible.


I thought it was stupid and self-serving twaddle that was at least as self-righteous as Zimerman's outburst. And probably disingenuous, as well - what exactly was that Yamaha "keyboard" that he compares to Zimerman's destroyed Steinway? Whatever it might be, apparently it was repairable, unlike the Steinway. And that weird detour into anti-Webern guilt-by-association was just plain icky.

And what's with a "blog" that has a gap from March to October - that's false advertising, if you ask me (unless you are as brilliant a writer as Denk, which Gibbons isn't even within shouting range of being).

Last edited by wr; 12/20/10 06:14 AM.
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
Mattardo #1580412 12/20/10 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Mattardo
Originally Posted by TheCannibalHaddock
Originally Posted by Mattardo
It's amazing how many people take the freedom of speech America grants, and then uses it to trash it. Biting the hand that feeds - especially for a touring foreign pianist who is making money off of America.


People go to Zimmerman's concerts because they want to, not because they're doing him a favour. Biting the hand that feeds it?


Zimmerman makes money by touring - probably a lot more money than his recordings bring him. It's usually the same for any musician, whether they are classical, rock, or pop - albums just increase public awareness for the inevitable tours. They are usually willing to let the record company make the larger amount of money on the albums, knowing that they'll be making more on their tours.

So, yes - you are biting the hand that feeds when you throw a temper tantrum on stage and declare your disdain for the people who are paying you money. It's disrespectful to the audience, the venue which is hosting you, and to the country that permits you to legally perform and earn money in that country. There's no such thing as a natural-right to enter another country and then earn money - it's usually granted through a legal process involving much paper work, and it's not considered a 'right'. The same applies to freedom of speech - it's a legal right granted through the process of law, not something nature has bestowed on people. It's entirely up to the whim of whoever is in power, whether that right is granted or not.


Anyways, the point I was making is that it's silly to bite the hand that feeds. I hope that clarified things... He'll just have to make up for the lost revenue by focusing on non-American venues, obviously. It's just a shame when musicians enter into politics. Do what you do best, concert pianists: play the piano and leave the politics alone. It's annoying when composers start tackling politics, not to mention musicians getting in on the act....

laugh


Let me guess...you voted for Bush didn't ya?



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
RaindropPrelude #1580415 12/20/10 05:31 AM
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This is old news, but it IS unfortunate, because those of us living in the U.S. may never have the opportunity to hear one of the world's greatest living pianists perform live again (unless, of course, we're willing to travel).

I have no problem, whatsoever, with Zimerman, or his views. I do believe he could have made his feelings known off stage, but I also don't blame him for using the stage to bring attention to those feelings. He can and should be able to say whatever he wants to say anywhere he wants to say it.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
Mattardo #1580418 12/20/10 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Mattardo
The same applies to freedom of speech - it's a legal right granted through the process of law, not something nature has bestowed on people. It's entirely up to the whim of whoever is in power, whether that right is granted or not.



Wait...how in the heck did I miss this??? Freedom of speech is something that should be governed and is GIVEN to people and better yet is something that is given based on the WHIM of whomever is in power??? Wow. I suppose I shouldn't be completely surprised having read other statements you've made in the past. Enjoy your rock.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
Mattardo #1580472 12/20/10 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mattardo
The same applies to freedom of speech - it's a legal right granted through the process of law, not something nature has bestowed on people. It's entirely up to the whim of whoever is in power, whether that right is granted or not.


You must have voted for Obama. Freedom of speech is a right with which you are born. Dictatorial leftists would love to remove it, and are trying to silence dissenting speech forever.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
RaindropPrelude #1580474 12/20/10 08:55 AM
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I find Zimerman's stance is ridiculous because the US is an incredibly diverse country. Why would you want to specifically punish music fans for what their government does (they are the only ones impacted by his decision)? What point is he really making? That he can lump all the people of the United States into one basket and say that he has a philosophical problem with all of them? It's all good and well to be highly principled and act on your morals, but they should make sense. By withdrawing from any future involvement with the US, he has guaranteed that he will be irrelevant there from now on. If he thought about it, he'd probably find reasons to object to a lot of countries' policies, but he's chosen to land the biggest fish to stake his claim for notoriety.

He could have made the same point about his feelings on the policies of recent US governments in an appropriate forum and continued to play concerts for his many US fans. He is being quite ungrateful to his fans and is unnecessarily grandstanding. He sounds capricious and unbalanced from what I have read so far. I'm not impressed.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
ando #1580480 12/20/10 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ando
I find Zimerman's stance is ridiculous because the US is an incredibly diverse country. Why would you want to specifically punish music fans for what their government does (they are the only ones impacted by his decision)? What point is he really making? That he can lump all the people of the United States into one basket and say that he has a philosophical problem with all of them? It's all good and well to be highly principled and act on your morals, but they should make sense. By withdrawing from any future involvement with the US, he has guaranteed that he will be irrelevant there from now on. If he thought about it, he'd probably find reasons to object to a lot of countries' policies, but he's chosen to land the biggest fish to stake his claim for notoriety.

He could have made the same point about his feelings on the policies of recent US governments in an appropriate forum and continued to play concerts for his many US fans. He is being quite ungrateful to his fans and is unnecessarily grandstanding. He sounds capricious and unbalanced from what I have read so far. I'm not impressed.


Would you like some Freedom Fries with that ... speaking of lumping people together. smile


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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
Dave Horne #1580481 12/20/10 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Originally Posted by ando
I find Zimerman's stance is ridiculous because the US is an incredibly diverse country. Why would you want to specifically punish music fans for what their government does (they are the only ones impacted by his decision)? What point is he really making? That he can lump all the people of the United States into one basket and say that he has a philosophical problem with all of them? It's all good and well to be highly principled and act on your morals, but they should make sense. By withdrawing from any future involvement with the US, he has guaranteed that he will be irrelevant there from now on. If he thought about it, he'd probably find reasons to object to a lot of countries' policies, but he's chosen to land the biggest fish to stake his claim for notoriety.

He could have made the same point about his feelings on the policies of recent US governments in an appropriate forum and continued to play concerts for his many US fans. He is being quite ungrateful to his fans and is unnecessarily grandstanding. He sounds capricious and unbalanced from what I have read so far. I'm not impressed.


Would you like some Freedom Fries with that ... speaking of lumping people together. smile


Are you having trouble with your English, Dave? I didn't lump anybody together. It was a singular statement about a single person.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
RaindropPrelude #1580485 12/20/10 09:30 AM
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Zimmerman's outburst was a rude rant. I have no desire to pay any money to see him perform. There are hundreds of fine "starving" pianists out there who I would rather support with my spending choices.

Unlike many on the left, I find it vulgar to wear my politics on my sleeve. I'm also not much for public proselytizing.

Gibbons blog was indeed far more sensible to me, despite its wanderings. And it had the virtue of being a blog entry, not a gratuitous insult to a paying audience.

BTW, I did not vote for GWB, just in case some people here want to typecast.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
Damon #1580493 12/20/10 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Damon
Freedom of speech is a right with which you are born.


That would seem correct, within restrictions of consideration for others of course!

Originally Posted by Damon
Dictatorial leftists would love to remove it, and are trying to silence dissenting speech forever.


I think you may have this a bit confused though...left wing preaches equality; the opposite to what you have implied.
Dictators are the opposite to left wing. Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe; these are all very totalitarianistic, and most definitely not left wing!


All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
ando #1580494 12/20/10 09:50 AM
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Are you having trouble with your English, Dave? I didn't lump anybody together. It was a singular statement about a single person.

I was just pointing out the silliness in the entire lumping together business, that's all. I always found the renaming of French Fries to Freedom Fries particularly amusing.

(I always have to tell my Dutch friends when they start talking about the foreigners in their country and the problems they bring, that I'm a foreigner but somehow that escapes them.)

I'm just amused by all of this, that's all.


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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
Dave Horne #1580498 12/20/10 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
Are you having trouble with your English, Dave? I didn't lump anybody together. It was a singular statement about a single person.

I was just pointing out the silliness in the entire lumping together business, that's all. I always found the renaming of French Fries to Freedom Fries particularly amusing.

(I always have to tell my Dutch friends when they start talking about the foreigners in their country and the problems they bring, that I'm a foreigner but somehow that escapes them.)

I'm just amused by all of this, that's all.


It is all very silly. I guess it's too late for me to say musicians shouldn't comment on politics since I've made a statement relating to it myself - I just think that lumping things together and making sweeping generalisations is the height of stupidity.

I also have no further inclination to check out Zimerman's music. I prefer to have an uncluttered feeling about my musicians. I don't choose musicians for their political views - I usually just want music from them. I feel he gave his (captive) audience no choice but to be brow-beaten. It may have been his stage, but they didn't pay to see that. Next time, he should just do a magazine interview or a blog or something. Give people the choice to avoid it if they are uncomfortable with it.

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
RaindropPrelude #1580499 12/20/10 10:04 AM
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I remember when they did the whole freedom fries things. That was quite funny.

This is going to be a quite interesting thread..... See what the rest of the world thinks of the US!


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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
RaindropPrelude #1580504 12/20/10 10:20 AM
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Let's change the subject. How about the program Zimerman played. How was it? Did anyone enjoy the MUSIC?


Jose
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Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
RaindropPrelude #1580509 12/20/10 10:29 AM
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I understand there are now lots of US bases in Poland resulting from the later's decision to join NATO. Perhaps Mr Zimmerman's political leanings are elsewhere? Alternatively, maybe he simply lost his marbles?

Re: Zimermans Piano Destroyed...
RaindropPrelude #1580514 12/20/10 10:46 AM
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Zimerman is known by Classical music insiders as among the most difficult pianists to deal with today. This has driven concert promoters, managers, his record label, and now audiences to distraction.

A previous poster mentioned selling his Brahms solo piano CD on e-bay at a high price. That became a collectors item because Zimerman enforced a clause in his contract with Deutsche Grammophon that allows him to withdraw any of his recordings, at any time, for any reason. In other words, Zimerman changed his mind about the recording, decided he didn't like it anymore, and DG didn't make any more copies available.

Zimerman's penchant for rudeness doesn't just apply to audiences. At a master class, he brusquely dismissed a pianist's question about travelling with his own piano as "stupid and inconsiderate."

(I've also heard from one person who met him after a concert that Zimerman apparently doesn't bathe regularly. I've only heard him live once, two decades ago in Boston, and I didn't get close enough for an olfactory appraisal.)

No doubt, as a musician and pianist, Zimerman is virtually without peer. His self-conducted version of Chopin's Concertos is one of my reference recordings, as is that Brahms set. But given his public outbursts and other behavior, he's certainly not making any friends - maybe he doesn't want or need to.

As for the context of Zimerman's remark: I'll refrain from any comment. But those who know me know where I stand politically.


Hank Drake

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