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Originally Posted by Victor25
I do have to disagree with one point stores, I absolutely do not think she is pretty frown A better example of that would be Lola Astanova.

Though I would still much prefer to listen Louis Lortie and putting up a picture of Jessica Alba.


Victor, I don't think she's pretty either, nor did I say she was. I said she's above average in the looks department, which simply means she not ugly. I don't really care about her looks one way or the other though. I care only about the music, but make no mistake that her looks DO play a part in her popularity as is the case with some other pianists that come to mind. Plover, if you're reading this I'll state this as fact, before you begin your opinion/fact blah blah blah again.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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Originally Posted by stores
I care only about the music, but make no mistake that her looks DO play a part in her popularity as is the case with some other pianists that come to mind.



Yes, but if I were you, I would not mention the "looks" aspect. It diminishes your opinion.

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Originally Posted by Andromaque
Originally Posted by stores
I care only about the music, but make no mistake that her looks DO play a part in her popularity as is the case with some other pianists that come to mind.



Yes, but if I were you, I would not mention the "looks" aspect. It diminishes your opinion.


Point taken, but it IS part of her "draw", which is why I mentioned it in the first place.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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But the real forum question is, is she prettier than the third concerto by Rachmaninov is hard ?

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Originally Posted by stores
Victor, I don't think she's pretty either, nor did I say she was. I said she's above average in the looks department, which simply means she not ugly. I don't really care about her looks one way or the other though. I care only about the music, but make no mistake that her looks DO play a part in her popularity as is the case with some other pianists that come to mind. Plover, if you're reading this I'll state this as fact, before you begin your opinion/fact blah blah blah again.
You already stated it as if it was a fact by not including any IMO or "I think".

Last edited by pianoloverus; 12/15/10 11:03 AM.
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Originally Posted by Mostly
But the real forum question is, is she prettier than the third concerto by Rachmaninov is hard ?


Neither... PROKOFIEV 2 BRAHMS 2 BARTOK 2 BUSONI TCHAIKOVSKY 2 IS TEH HARDERZ!!!!!11one one

Seriously though, I think that's an apple/oranges question. But you probably asked it on purpose, hehe. smile

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by stores
Victor, I don't think she's pretty either, nor did I say she was. I said she's above average in the looks department, which simply means she not ugly. I don't really care about her looks one way or the other though. I care only about the music, but make no mistake that her looks DO play a part in her popularity as is the case with some other pianists that come to mind. Plover, if you're reading this I'll state this as fact, before you begin your opinion/fact blah blah blah again.
You already stated it as if it was a fact by not including any IMO or "I think".


Blah blah blah...
Plover is talking, but stores is not listening...dah dah dah dah dah.......



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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"Since a lot of what makes music work famously defies explanation and verbalization, I guess it is easy to come to the conclusion that "it's all subjective" - but it isn't."

It isn't?

"Of course, all this varies with the individual, and no one is infallible, and there will always be disagreement between knowledgeable people, too. But experience and expertise still do count."

It all varies with the individual but not subjective?



" I remember reading somewhere that it isn't enough to love the music you play, but the music must also love you. If she can focus on music that loves her, I think/feel/hope that there could be a great artist in her, not yet realized."

What in heaven's name does this mean? Is it a fancy way of saying that a person relates to the music? Or a clever way of saying that the music is still alive even though written down?


All these words about music, so little time. I don't mean to disparage all this discussion, but I have to say in some way it all strikes me as rather ludicrous. Maybe too much sophistication (or pretenses toward such) is the problem. I remember the first time I heard Chopin's Nocturne Op. 9 #2, and was completely enchanted into another world. It was over the radio, a tinny speaker, I can't remember who the pianist was. But it was the music. The music. The music.

Since then, I've collected hundreds upon hundreds of CDs of a wide variety of piano music and pianists. But I'd be pretty hard pressed to tell anyone who I think is "best" or who my favorite pianist is. (I could say something like "I really love Pires's Chopin Nocturnes" but I can't say it in terms of "Her interpretation is the best that I've ever heard." I just don't understand "best" when it comes to these sorts of things, especially when you get to a certain level of competency.

And when I go to YouTube, and find myself listening to some guy in Passaic, doing his best to perform "What Have You" by "The Great Composer" I'm not going to be after his throat. And maybe Lisitsa is a showgirl, I dont know (although I'm certain of one thing and it's that she's looks 87.892901 times more serious with the music than Clang Clang) but I can't help but simply fall into an awed respect of someone who has absorbed herself so fully into the music.

I don't go to performances to judge or compare. That's a waste of time. I wonder sometimes if we're just too easily saturated with "input" - that there are so many easy ways to listen to a performance these days. Maybe we lose too much (and I hate to use this word, but...) innocence in our approach.

Is it too naive anymore to just say, "Enjoy the music!"?


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Originally Posted by toyboy
"Since a lot of what makes music work famously defies explanation and verbalization, I guess it is easy to come to the conclusion that "it's all subjective" - but it isn't."

It isn't?



No, it isn't.

Quote



"Of course, all this varies with the individual, and no one is infallible, and there will always be disagreement between knowledgeable people, too. But experience and expertise still do count."

It all varies with the individual but not subjective?



I didn't say "not subjective". And individual variation doesn't imply some kind of total subjectivity to me.

Quote


Is it too naive anymore to just say, "Enjoy the music!"?


Yes, it is. After hearing lots and lots of performances of the Chopin Fantasie, there is nothing wrong with coming to conclusions that some are more successful than others, and to start getting ideas about why that is so. And extrapolating bits of that information one has gleaned to other Chopin works, and maybe to other works in that era, and maybe to how people play more generally, etc.



Last edited by wr; 12/16/10 07:53 AM.
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Originally Posted by toyboy
"Since a lot of what makes music work famously defies explanation and verbalization, I guess it is easy to come to the conclusion that "it's all subjective" - but it isn't."

It isn't?

"Of course, all this varies with the individual, and no one is infallible, and there will always be disagreement between knowledgeable people, too. But experience and expertise still do count."

It all varies with the individual but not subjective?



" I remember reading somewhere that it isn't enough to love the music you play, but the music must also love you. If she can focus on music that loves her, I think/feel/hope that there could be a great artist in her, not yet realized."

What in heaven's name does this mean? Is it a fancy way of saying that a person relates to the music? Or a clever way of saying that the music is still alive even though written down?


All these words about music, so little time. I don't mean to disparage all this discussion, but I have to say in some way it all strikes me as rather ludicrous. Maybe too much sophistication (or pretenses toward such) is the problem. I remember the first time I heard Chopin's Nocturne Op. 9 #2, and was completely enchanted into another world. It was over the radio, a tinny speaker, I can't remember who the pianist was. But it was the music. The music. The music.

Since then, I've collected hundreds upon hundreds of CDs of a wide variety of piano music and pianists. But I'd be pretty hard pressed to tell anyone who I think is "best" or who my favorite pianist is. (I could say something like "I really love Pires's Chopin Nocturnes" but I can't say it in terms of "Her interpretation is the best that I've ever heard." I just don't understand "best" when it comes to these sorts of things, especially when you get to a certain level of competency.

And when I go to YouTube, and find myself listening to some guy in Passaic, doing his best to perform "What Have You" by "The Great Composer" I'm not going to be after his throat. And maybe Lisitsa is a showgirl, I dont know (although I'm certain of one thing and it's that she's looks 87.892901 times more serious with the music than Clang Clang) but I can't help but simply fall into an awed respect of someone who has absorbed herself so fully into the music.

I don't go to performances to judge or compare. That's a waste of time. I wonder sometimes if we're just too easily saturated with "input" - that there are so many easy ways to listen to a performance these days. Maybe we lose too much (and I hate to use this word, but...) innocence in our approach.

Is it too naive anymore to just say, "Enjoy the music!"?


I agree with a lot of what you've said. I myself came to the realisation a while ago that if I make an effort to not intellectually criticise every performance I hear, 1. I will enjoy myself a lot more, as I go to many concerts and 2. my money will be much better spent, as I will have enjoyed the concert rather than coming out complaining about poorly executed parallel motion octaves.

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[quote=toyboy] ...
Is it too naive anymore to just say, "Enjoy the music!"? [/
quote]


Clap clap clap .-.. i totally agree ... one objection though; its "Bang Bang".

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NEWLY REVISED POST!!!

Well, just based on the two replies above, methinks I'd rather go to concerts with Debrucey than WR,* even though I might learn more from the latter, musicologically speaking. Of which, such aforementioned difference of the methodology of concert attendance, in and of itself, ipso facto, does thus clearly prove the complete subjectivity of the musical experience.

Q.E.D.

...
and Izaldu, I stand corrected! smile

* PLEASE NOTE THIS POSITION OF PREFERENCE SHOULD NOT SUGGEST THAT WR HAS REALLY INTERESTING OPINIONS ON MUSIC, OR WOULD NOT IN ANY WAY MAKE A GREAT DATE.

Last edited by toyboy; 12/16/10 07:01 PM.

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Originally Posted by Victor25
I do have to disagree with one point stores, I absolutely do not think she is pretty frown A better example of that would be Lola Astanova.

If you're going to mention an example of 'good looks', I think the better example is Valentina Igoshina (and better technique, too).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa0Z6g1XJkU


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Originally Posted by Victor25
I do have to disagree with one point stores, I absolutely do not think she is pretty frown A better example of that would be Lola Astanova.


Well, my my my. Would you take a look at this.

http://www.lolaastanova.com/gallery.cfm

I like horny pictures just like the next guy, but this is just mixing apples and oranges if you ask me. All the complaints I'm reading about Valentina Lisitsa trading off her looks to get attention come across as completely sexist after you look at Astanova's centerfo-I mean, um, publicity photos.

Laying on a piano with your butt sticking up in the air certainly has its place, but I insist some traditions must be kept. I never saw Marta Argerich doing that.

Last edited by toyboy; 12/16/10 06:22 PM.

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Originally Posted by toyboy
Well, just based on the two replies above, methinks I'd rather go to concerts with Debrucey than WR, even though I might learn more from the latter, musicologically speaking. Of which, such aforementioned difference of the methodology of concert attendance, in and of itself, ipso facto, does thus clearly prove the complete subjectivity of the musical experience.



I am beginning to see why you'd prefer to see it that way.


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Originally Posted by wr

I am beginning to see why you'd prefer to see it that way.



Care to expand on your innuendo?


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Originally Posted by toyboy
Originally Posted by wr

I am beginning to see why you'd prefer to see it that way.



Care to expand on your innuendo?


Nope.

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I see your point. Shame on me. Mea culpa. Please see newly revised post above.


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Originally Posted by toyboy
Originally Posted by wr

I am beginning to see why you'd prefer to see it that way.



Care to expand on your innuendo?


I think it was a gay joke. Tut tut

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