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Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) #1573906
12/10/10 11:26 AM
12/10/10 11:26 AM
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Posts: 536
Rome, Italy
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achat Offline OP
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I have tried Pianoteq Demo with my P85 and a MIDI-USB interface.
Everything work fine just "plug and play".

But I am disappointed with the sound.
I have played a lot with the different grand pianos and velocity curves, but it always sounds to me too much "metallic", instead than "woody", if this makes clear what I mean.

Is there any way to fix this "sensation" with some particular setting?

Edit: is there any possibility it depends on the sound card quality of my PC?

A.

Last edited by ashat; 12/10/10 12:00 PM.
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Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1573941
12/10/10 12:19 PM
12/10/10 12:19 PM
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ClassicalMastery Offline
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If your sound card is inexpensive or built-in, then this might be the problem, of course. Pianoteq does seem a bit bright and metallic sounding to me. This shows you that people have different audio equipment, hearing, and perception when it comes to piano sounds. Some really like Pianoteq and others don't like it.

Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1573957
12/10/10 12:56 PM
12/10/10 12:56 PM
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Germany
hpeterh Offline
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I dont think it is the soundcard.
When I wake up in the morning then my radioclock is playing.
I choose a classical radio station and quite often they play piano music and quite often I think "this sounds wonderful". Even through cheap speakers in mono I can judge about the sound.

That said, a typical effect on a piano is a resonance around 50 Hz.
You could try to simulate this with an equalizer.


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Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1573958
12/10/10 12:56 PM
12/10/10 12:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 448
Hamburg, Germany
Martin C. Doege Offline
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Decent headphones also make a big difference for Pianoteq. I.e., some headphones are geared towards Pop music and produce a relatively metallic, thin, cold, and aggressive sound. Others give the sound more warmth and intimacy. It's not necessarily a question of price; both bad and good in-ear headphones can be had for 20 $/€ or less. You simply have to test them with PT and pick one that sounds nice.

Start with the new Pleyel in player perspective, that is probably about as warm as PT sounds gets right now.

Martin


Yamaha P-85; Pianoteq Pleyel
Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1573973
12/10/10 01:11 PM
12/10/10 01:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,485
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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I've always thought Pianoteq sounds metallic and synthetic. It depends probably on your preference for piano sound. Some people love it though. I am not one of them.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1573977
12/10/10 01:14 PM
12/10/10 01:14 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 536
Rome, Italy
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achat Offline OP
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Thanks for the suggestions.

Should I download again the Demo version to have the new Pleyel piano available?

A.

Last edited by ashat; 12/10/10 01:16 PM.
Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1574016
12/10/10 02:11 PM
12/10/10 02:11 PM
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Helsinki, Finland
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Artur Gajewski Offline
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I too am dissapointed with Pianoteq piano sound. I have Reason Pianos and it produces much more realistic Steinway sound than Pianoteq does.

This ofcourse is a matter of personal preference.


- Artur Gajewski

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Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1574074
12/10/10 03:47 PM
12/10/10 03:47 PM
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Cambridgeshire, UK
BazC Offline
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I don't believe the Pleyel is in the demo, it's a separate (but free) package - KIViR instruments. You may have access to to as a separtate download, you may not though. I would say the K1 is warmer than the Pleyel anyway.

If the demos on the Pianoteq site sound good but your installation of Pianoteq doesn't the I would suspect your setup. If the demos sound too metallic then Pianoteq probably isn't for you - I doubt you'll get a better sound than the best of the demos.

Take a listen to La Campanella recorded by Koseph Felice, that's about as good as PTQ gets IMO, he kindly posted the settings he used for that recording in the files section - look for K105 JF 23NOV10.fxp


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Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: BazC] #1574553
12/11/10 08:30 AM
12/11/10 08:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 536
Rome, Italy
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achat Offline OP
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Rome, Italy
Originally Posted by BazC

If the demos on the Pianoteq site sound good but your installation of Pianoteq doesn't the I would suspect your setup. If the demos sound too metallic then Pianoteq probably isn't for you - I doubt you'll get a better sound than the best of the demos.


I am confused about this.
If I listen to the demos on the Pianoteq forum through my PC I am using the same sound card I am using to play with Pianoteq installed and driven by my keyboard.

In which way should it sound different?

A.

Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1574576
12/11/10 09:30 AM
12/11/10 09:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,485
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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The only possible difference a sound card could make is when the latency is too low in which case you will experience crackles, glitches and other similar effects which obviously show there is a technical problem. In any other case there woldn't be any substantial difference between the cheapest builtin soundcard and the most expensive dedicated audio interface in terms of piano timbre.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1574601
12/11/10 10:23 AM
12/11/10 10:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 722
Cambridgeshire, UK
BazC Offline
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Originally Posted by ashat

In which way should it sound different?
A.


It shouldn't but it could, there are all manner of ways to spoil the sound in PTQ.

The question is though do you like the sound on the demos? If you do then you need to figure out how to get a similar sound with your setup, for that you probably need to ask for help on the Pianoteq forums. If you don't like the demos then you probably just don't like Pianoteq.


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Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1574776
12/11/10 03:37 PM
12/11/10 03:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 448
Hamburg, Germany
Martin C. Doege Offline
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Hamburg, Germany
You could also experiment with a VST vacuum tube plugin like this one for a warmer, more analog sound. (Of course then you need to use a VST host like MULAB to combine the PT VSTi with other VST effects.)

Here's Mihai Sorohan's "Dream of the Piano" (MULAB demo song) again, with a little TAL-Tube on the PT sound, about 3/4 wet:

http://www.box.net/shared/ofun8277vo

Martin


Yamaha P-85; Pianoteq Pleyel
Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1574876
12/11/10 06:54 PM
12/11/10 06:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,163
Sydney, Australia
S
sullivang Offline
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Sydney, Australia
Martin,
Thanks for that nice demo. It'd be interesting to hear the same demo, keeping everything the same, but ONLY remove the TAL-Tube from Pianoteq. (if you used TAL-Tube on other tracks, retain that)

Greg.

Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: sullivang] #1574915
12/11/10 07:54 PM
12/11/10 07:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 448
Hamburg, Germany
Martin C. Doege Offline
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Martin C. Doege  Offline
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Originally Posted by sullivang
Martin,
Thanks for that nice demo. It'd be interesting to hear the same demo, keeping everything the same, but ONLY remove the TAL-Tube from Pianoteq. (if you used TAL-Tube on other tracks, retain that)

Greg.


Hi Greg!

The tube effect was indeed only on the piano voice. Here's a version without it:

http://www.box.net/shared/g1pfj2pype

I think the difference is that in the regular version, the piano notes feel a little too clean and disconnected, whereas the tube somehow makes it more legato, perhaps because it acts a little like a low-pass filter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound). And the sound is not as super clean as before.

Hopefully it's not just the placebo effect. No, I'm pretty sure that plugin does something to the audio to make it a little less digital-sounding. smile

Martin


Yamaha P-85; Pianoteq Pleyel
Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: Martin C. Doege] #1574916
12/11/10 07:55 PM
12/11/10 07:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 536
Rome, Italy
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achat Offline OP
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Rome, Italy
tThanks for the demo song Martin.
It actually sounds metallic to me even this one.
So it could be my sound card, my headphones or my ear.

A.


Originally Posted by Martin C. Doege
You could also experiment with a VST vacuum tube plugin like this one for a warmer, more analog sound. (Of course then you need to use a VST host like MULAB to combine the PT VSTi with other VST effects.)

Here's Mihai Sorohan's "Dream of the Piano" (MULAB demo song) again, with a little TAL-Tube on the PT sound, about 3/4 wet:

http://www.box.net/shared/ofun8277vo

Martin

Last edited by ashat; 12/11/10 08:03 PM.
Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1574926
12/11/10 08:13 PM
12/11/10 08:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,163
Sydney, Australia
S
sullivang Offline
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That was quick! Thanks.

I can't really detect any difference between the two. Both sound nice, but I'm wondering whether it's the other sounds that are helping Pianoteq. I think the tube effect is probably very subtle, and is not the main aspect I am hearing.

Greg.

Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: sullivang] #1574938
12/11/10 08:36 PM
12/11/10 08:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 448
Hamburg, Germany
Martin C. Doege Offline
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Well, of course nice pad sounds always help. But I think there's a subtle improvement in the piano voice too.

On the other hand, while this version sounds better to me than the previous K1 version (http://www.box.net/shared/ovnjj7eo8u) over my "bad" headphones, it's almost a little too bass-heavy over my "good" headphones which I normally use for Pianoteq.

The equipment people are using to listen to Pianoteq might explain widely-varying opinions about its sound quality--i.e., some headphones bring out the dead, ugly, and metallic quality in it, while over others it sounds quite beautiful.

Martin


Yamaha P-85; Pianoteq Pleyel
Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: achat] #1574985
12/11/10 09:59 PM
12/11/10 09:59 PM
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Sydney, Australia
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sullivang Offline
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Sydney, Australia
That version doesn't sound at all bass heavy on my good headphones, however my good headphones have a reputation for a lack of bass. smile
(AKG K601)

Greg.

Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: sullivang] #1575163
12/12/10 07:50 AM
12/12/10 07:50 AM
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Cambridgeshire, UK
BazC Offline
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BTW it's worth playing around with different output methods, I usually use Pianoteq with headphones so theoretically Binaural would be the correct setting to use but the K1 and Pleyel sound very artificial with that setting, I get a much more natural sound with Stereophonic.


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Korg SP200, Pianoteq
Re: Pianoteq with P85 (disappointing) [Re: Martin C. Doege] #1575316
12/12/10 02:59 PM
12/12/10 02:59 PM
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Victoria BC
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Glenn NK Offline
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Originally Posted by Martin C. Doege

The equipment people are using to listen to Pianoteq might explain widely-varying opinions about its sound quality--i.e., some headphones bring out the dead, ugly, and metallic quality in it, while over others it sounds quite beautiful.

Martin


Try putting a piano in different rooms/buildings and the change can be striking. For 25 years, I played my 5'-8" Yamaha G2 in two rooms that were approximately 3.6 metres by 4.9 metres (12 ft x 16 ft).

I sold it on consignment and it was placed in the dealer's large showroom - when I tried it there, it wasn't the same piano at all.

There is also the phenomenon of "familiarity" that applies to any piano sound - play it for a few hours and it becomes "normal".

Likewise, with our sound equipment - we listen to it hour after hour for weeks/months, and the sound becomes our standard no matter how good or bad it is.

Throw in the variability of tastes and we have a formula for disparate opinions on what sounds "real".

Glenn

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