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Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book #1571752
12/07/10 05:41 AM
12/07/10 05:41 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline OP
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Mark R.  Offline OP
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Pretoria, South Africa
Dear technicians,

While reading through Arthur Reblitz's book (2nd. Ed.), the latter part of chapter five on regulating grand actions, I stumbled across the following:

Quote
5. Regulate key dip. Using a 3/8" (10 mm.) dip block or Jaras leveling tool as shown in vertical action regulating, #14, regulate first white and then sharp key dip by adding or subtracting paper balance
rail punchings
.


Seeing that the keys were already leveled in the previous step, I suspect that the above is an error, and should read front rail punchings.

Or is the key dip on a grand really regulated on the balance rail?

Thanks for reading, and regards.


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
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Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1571785
12/07/10 07:50 AM
12/07/10 07:50 AM
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rXd Offline
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Yes. Sharps are first adjusted so that they are a dimes thickness when pressed down above the keytops at rest (up). Any discrepancy of aftertouch is adjusted by the height of the sharps on the basis that it is more important to preserve the feel of the sharp when down above the White keys when up. Any discernible discrepancy in the resulting level of the black keys can be traced back, it might even be a difference in the thickness of a buckskin r on the roller or on the knuckle. What you do from there depends on your level of fastidiousness. Replace the part or distribute the difference among the other dimensions. The technical term for this is 'fudging'. Fudging is not the policy of most of us, it is, however our practice and is a measure of how skilful you are, to make an undetectable fudge.
I agree. Reblitz is not clear on this and neither am I. It can be a difficult concept. Bear in mind that on shorter keysticks, the sharp dip is not necessarily the same as the dip of the White keys,aftertouch is however the same.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: rXd] #1571789
12/07/10 08:03 AM
12/07/10 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rxd
.....

Fudging is not the policy of most of us, it is, however our practice and is a measure of how skilful you are, to make an undetectable fudge.

.....


I've been wondering what I would have tattooed on me if I ever decided to get one. The search is over. Excellent!


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1571798
12/07/10 08:22 AM
12/07/10 08:22 AM
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Strong, Maine
David Jenson Offline
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I have a new goal in life, ... the quest for the undetectable fudge!


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1571813
12/07/10 08:47 AM
12/07/10 08:47 AM
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CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
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Mark,
The answer to your question is, yes, this is a misprint in Reblitz's book. You regulate key DIP at the FRONT rail, and LEVEL the keys at the balance rail. You cannot regulate the sharps by using a 3/8" key dip block either. That's where the Jaras tool, or a dime, comes in very handy.


Piano Technician/Tuner
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: rXd] #1571814
12/07/10 08:47 AM
12/07/10 08:47 AM
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Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline OP
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Mark R.  Offline OP
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Pretoria, South Africa
[EDIT: oops, I just saw that CC2's answer came in while I was writing my post. Thanks, it's clear to me now! So don't bother about what follows below - I've struck it through.]

Thanks, rXd, for your answer.

Unfortunately, I'm somewhat confused by it.


Originally Posted by rxd
Yes.


Does this refer to my statement,

Quote
I suspect that the above is an error, and should read front rail punchings.


Or does your "yes" refer to my question,

Quote
Or is the key dip on a grand really regulated on the balance rail?


If the latter is the case, it would appear that front rail punchings are not used at all in the regulation of a grand, and that the regulated action may have uneven (non-leveled) keys. It would seem so futile to level all keys in step 4, only to undo the leveling in step 5.

(Sorry, I hope I'm not being bothersome by trying to clear this up.)

Last edited by Mark R.; 12/07/10 08:56 AM.

Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1571839
12/07/10 09:20 AM
12/07/10 09:20 AM
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Bradford County, PA
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Hmmm,

If you leave Santa “undetectable fudge” on Christmas Eve, will he leave “undetectable presents” under the tree?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1571860
12/07/10 10:02 AM
12/07/10 10:02 AM
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rXd Offline
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Jeff. Depends on whether y been good or bad. Only Santa can detect that.

Mark. What I attempted to describe is the traditional factory way of doing this job. As you progress you will hear technicians talk of sharps 'burying themselves' there are good reasons for doing it the way Reblitz and I unsuccessfully described to you. If I were a pedantic old sod I would say the traditional way is right but for now, either way will work. I don't know the keystick length of your.Zimmerman but at 1929 I would guess it to be long enough that your sharps won't bury themselves. Do it CC2's way for now if it is easier but be aware there is another way that is not as easy but will be appropriate when you do finer work.
Sorry you didn't understand, it does seem a bit backwards. I created a bit of humor for my colleagues, though.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1571874
12/07/10 10:26 AM
12/07/10 10:26 AM
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Posts: 5,861
Bradford County, PA
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Now I have to figure out a way to be "undetectably bad". Oh, Fudge!


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1571898
12/07/10 11:04 AM
12/07/10 11:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline OP
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Mark R.  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Thanks, rXd.

On re-reading a few times, I think I get your drift - the point being that all (depressed) sharps should be the same height above the (non-depressed) naturals, so the dip/aftertouch must be fine-regulated by changing the resting height of the key at the balance rail, rather than the bottom stop of the key at the front rail.

Well, my Zimmermann is a story unto myself. Many stories, actually. The tech I bought it from, fitted new plastic keytops that are obviously much thicker than the original celluloids were (the side of the lowest key is marked "Zelluloid" in pencil, hence I deduce it had celluloids) - and he did so without sanding the keysticks down first. The new keytops standing higher, meant he had to lift the sharps quite significantly at the balance rail - making it look like a corrugated plate...

Also, the balance rail pins on some sharps were severely bent towards the strings, 10° easily, if not more. Even to my beginner's eye, the balance rail really looked quite chaotic. I wondered why those pins were bent all over the show, and when I carefully bent a few of them back, the front end of the sharps got stuck on the plastic keytops. I deduced that the recesses for the sharps in the plastic tops had not been filed sufficiently in some cases, so when the sharps got caught against the white tops, the tech then went forth and bent the sharps' balance rail pins towards the strings - not my idea of a neat job - but that's one of many other stories. So I set about filing the plastics after getting the sharps back into a proper line.

Oh, and I like the idea of undetectable fudge - although I'm afraid my belt buckle is an extremely reliable detector of fudge (at least the edible type).

Thanks again, I appreciate the contributions.


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1572053
12/07/10 02:53 PM
12/07/10 02:53 PM
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rXd Offline
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Thanks Mark. I have been feeling honour bound to come up with something to match Jeffs comment but yours is better than anything I could come up with. You have effectively absolved me of a great responsibility.
With the your keyboard as you describe it, you already know plenty about sharps burying themselves. And a gross example of fudging. I was talking about hiding maybe 1/10mm among 5-6 different points of adjustment.



Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1572203
12/07/10 07:12 PM
12/07/10 07:12 PM
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Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
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wayne walker Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
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Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
dime thickness, I have always used a nickle


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: rXd] #1572213
12/07/10 07:24 PM
12/07/10 07:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,919
Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Supply Offline
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Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Originally Posted by rxd
Sharps are first adjusted so that they are a dimes thickness when pressed down above the keytops at rest (up)....


I never knew they had dimes in England wink

I agree with Wayne though - a dime is too thin. 1.2 mm is not enough.

Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: wayne walker] #1572214
12/07/10 07:25 PM
12/07/10 07:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Olympia, WA
rysowers Offline
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I've always heard a nickle too. A dime would not be very much. Of course you could use both and really "nickle and dime" your customers![Linked Image]

At least that's my 15 cents worth.
[Linked Image]

Last edited by rysowers; 12/07/10 07:26 PM.

Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1572215
12/07/10 07:26 PM
12/07/10 07:26 PM
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Vancouver B. C. Canada
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I'm in for a nickle.


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
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"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Silverwood Pianos] #1572224
12/07/10 07:43 PM
12/07/10 07:43 PM
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Vancouver Island, BC, Canada
Supply Offline
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Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos

I'm in for a nickle.


I'll raise you a loonie!

That leaves only us Canucks in the game!

Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Supply] #1572228
12/07/10 07:47 PM
12/07/10 07:47 PM
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Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
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wayne walker Offline
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Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
I always use a nickel because I'm too cheap to used a dime. A nickel is just right tickness


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1572243
12/07/10 08:12 PM
12/07/10 08:12 PM
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Richfield Springs, New York
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Eric Gloo Offline
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I'd add my 2 bits, but then that would be too much.


Eric Gloo
Piano Technician
Certified Dampp-Chaser Installer
Richfield Springs, New York
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1572425
12/08/10 02:59 AM
12/08/10 02:59 AM
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Posts: 2,265
Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline OP
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Thanks all, not only was my question answered and I learned something, but with everyone throwing their small change into this thread, to coin a phrase, I also had a good chuckle in the process!


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Supply] #1572491
12/08/10 07:15 AM
12/08/10 07:15 AM
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[quote=Supply][quote=rxd]

I never knew they had dimes in England.

We don't. I use a tanner or a bob. A florin is too thick You always lose on the exchange rate anyway.

With thick plastic keytops I'd tend towards a minimum sharp height but let's not get into fudging again. Just so's the sharps don't bury themselves and then some.
I feel like I'm burying myself in this. It's all too deep for me. I'll see if I can rise above it. If the regulations permit.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1572648
12/08/10 01:07 PM
12/08/10 01:07 PM
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rysowers Offline
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[Linked Image]


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1572659
12/08/10 01:30 PM
12/08/10 01:30 PM
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When I get a band together, I think it's going to be called Undetectable Fudge. smile


(I'm a piano teacher.)
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1572989
12/08/10 11:06 PM
12/08/10 11:06 PM
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Vancouver B. C. Canada
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your first hit will be a sweet one. maybe the rest of them too....


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
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http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1573149
12/09/10 05:57 AM
12/09/10 05:57 AM
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Pretoria, South Africa
Mark R. Offline OP
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Pretoria, South Africa
It beats me how this thread has really caused such a string of puns. Butt I suppose the key to a happy life is to laugh more. Now, how much longer will we be able to sustain this, before we let off and our creative humor takes a dip?


Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.
Re: Stumped by a point in Arthur Reblitz's book [Re: Mark R.] #1573160
12/09/10 06:59 AM
12/09/10 06:59 AM
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O.K. I'm cheaper than all of you, I select a cardboard punching from my bags of punchings that looks about right.
I one entertained the idea of trying Japanese coins for this but I didn't have the yen to pursue it.
Factory specs have a built in factor to allow for wear and dimensions to get deeper or shallower over time. Piano factories with long experience of warranties know this and that the vast majority of the pianos they make will get no service throughout their lives. The new piano feel is not necessarily the most desireable touch quality. Pianos have a lot in common with shoes in this respect and we all know of old pianos that work well with no service. I have just had a look at some pianos ranging from 50 years old to almost new. The older ones look almost level at the very front and, on feeling them, I can't feel the tops of the white keys when I press a sharp fully down with a bit of extra pressure without rocking my finger side to side. Am I going to change this state of affairs back to factory specs??. Can I convincingly argue for the funding for this work with very experienced and skilfull pianists who, quite rightly, find nothing wrong from their point of view? Would I be remiss in my duties to not force the issue?.
Just a few random meanderings. I'll stop now.


Last edited by rxd; 12/09/10 07:06 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.



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