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Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length.
Where does this idea that anybody can do anything if they only apply themselves enough come from? To me, it flies in the face of observable reality. And it is annoying because of the implication involved that if someone can't do something, it is only because of their failure to work hard, which I think is total rubbish. This idea comes from "political correctness". Nobody is stupid, they just never had access to a good education. Nobody is obese from overeating, they have a metabolic disorder...You finished last?...well here is your trophy...etc. and all because democracy...  Huh?
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠$
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This idea comes from "political correctness". Nobody is stupid, they just never had access to a good education. If only it were that simple. I work with plenty of children easily classed as neglected compared to their cohort. If a parent doesn't support a child's education can you call it a good education?
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Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation. It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability. My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it. The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings. My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play. Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length. Your mom must be made happy artificially when she was pragnant with you....
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation. It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability. My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it. The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings. My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play. Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length. Your mom must be made happy artificially when she was pragnant with you.... What the heck does that mean?
"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
♪ ≠$
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Sorry for lurking  , but the myelin quotient is a real thing. See this article from FREDRIK ULLÉN (posted below), a Pianist and Nuero-scientist. I have corresponded with Fredrik Ullen: The main mechanisms behind motor learning are surely reorganizations
of the connections between nerve cells, including formation of new connections, which will change the behavior
of the neuronal networks. That's the general picture from a vast body
of human and animal studies on learning. So there is no evidence at all that myelination would be *directly* involved
in the process of learning e.g. a new piece of music, although of course IF myelination is altered it would have consequences for processing in those neural regions (e.g. the general degradation of motor functions in multiple sclerosis where myelin is damaged). For the white matter plasticity we have studied in pianists boosted myelination is only a working hypothesis, and we are at the moment excited about studying this phenomenon and its behavioral consequences further!
No I think the main explanation is automatisation. In the beginning,
playing the piece requires a lot of conscious control; in a brain scanner you would see lot of activity in "higher" brain areas of the motor system in the frontal lobe: areas that are involved in conscious attention and planning of movement. With extended
practice you will develop much more efficient motor representations of the piece, which can be executed without much conscious effort, and activity in
higher brain areas will be consequently be less. Again, I don't think alterations of myelination are important for these processes which essentially reflect reorganizations in neuronal networks in the brain's motor system.
It appears, though, that childhood music training stimulates myelination in pathways involved in music performance and this may very well have beneficial
effects for the function of the nervous system, but it is as I mentioned only a working hypothesis at the moment, which we proposed on the basis of findings in pianists. We don't know the functional
consequences of this type of changes.
Also: here's one site that explains about myelin and his work. The fascinating article is quite clear that myelinization is all over in early childhood with the frontal lobes finished in late teens: This ï¬nding suggests that the insulating of nerve ï¬bers in part determines age limits for learning new skills - windows of opportunity, or critical periods, when certain learning can occur or at least can occur readily. Learn a foreign language after puberty, and you are destined to speak it with an accent; learn the language as a child, and you will speak it like a native. http://www.sott.net/articles/show/200123-White-Matter That's all from this thread http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1406455/1.html which OT'd into The Talent Code. Thanks for the reposts. Interesting excerpt from this: " myelinization is all over in early childhood with the frontal lobes finished in late teens:
This ï¬nding suggests that the insulating of nerve ï¬bers in part determines age limits for learning new skills - windows of opportunity, or critical periods, when certain learning can occur or at least can occur readily. Learn a foreign language after puberty, and you are destined to speak it with an accent; learn the language as a child, and you will speak it like a native.
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Well, here' another story to add to this discussion (and please don't take this as a brag. It's just a story for the discussion):
My story is that I started playing piano at age 8 and didn't take it seriously until age 12. In that year, I jumped from playing Clementi Sonatinas and Bach minuets to Rachmaninov Preludes and late Beethoven Piano Sonatas, etc... Basically, I just starting practicing around 3-8 hours a day (with at least an hour devoted to technique every day) and was always pushing myself in recitals and competitions to go farther and farther (and I was pushing myself not my parents or teachers and am still going to school full time). Now, I'm almost 14 and I will be giving my solo and hopefully concerto debut this summer. I believe that anyone (no matter the age) can do what I did with lots dedication, devotion, love, and motivation. It is true with a lot of hard work and dedication we can reach our personal optimal ability. My question for you, do you think everybody can play, say, Chopin Etude Op.10 No. 12 up to the standard tempo if he or she practice really hard. From my personal observation, I do not think everybody can do this. Unless one really has the innate ability to do this, no amount of practice will enable one to reach that level. It is like running, all of us can run, but to run fast, not everybody can do it. Playing revolutionary etude slowly, say, about 120, most people can do it, but speed up to 156, very few people can do it. The same for Op. 10 No.2. Everybody can play that etude slowly if one practiced, but most people cannot play up to speed. Like one of the ex-member of this forum, he kept claiming that he could play several fast tempo Chopin etudes, but every thing was down played. Of course, everybody can play at that tempo. I believe you can still find his recordings. My point is that everybody has limitation, I do not believe practice alone will make you be able to play everything that you desire to play. Well, if you practice a lot of technique (and here I mean like 2-3 hours of those boring Hanon/Czerny exercises plus scales/arpeggios/chords/thirds) than yes you can play all the Chopin etudes up to full speed. However, most of us don't have the patience for that much technique (I know I don't [I'm lucky to get in an hour of technique]) and so it takes us much longer (or never) to be able to play (for example) op10no2 flawlessly and in just over a minute in length. Your mom must be made happy artificially when she was pragnant with you.... What the heck does that mean? HAHAHAHAAH.....what did the mom smoke to produce such a delusional kid?
Last edited by RonaldSteinway; 12/05/10 02:01 PM.
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"myelinization is all over in early childhood with the frontal lobes finished in late teens:
This ï¬nding suggests that the insulating of nerve ï¬bers in part determines age limits for learning new skills - windows of opportunity, or critical periods, when certain learning can occur or at least can occur readily. Learn a foreign language after puberty, and you are destined to speak it with an accent; learn the language as a child, and you will speak it like a native.
I hope I haven't confused you. The above is by me (I think), the first two quote boxes are Ullen. Hold on I'm wrong! It's just the first sentence (I think). And Jeez, ain't it powerful stuff!
Last edited by keyboardklutz; 12/05/10 02:14 PM.
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A few notable words from the Ullen text:
only a working hypothesis
but it is as I mentioned only a working hypothesis at the moment
We don't know the functional consequences
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Ullen is the cautious scientist, unlike the usual 'popular science' writers who get media space. Basically he's saying the jury's out on the role of myelin in learning.
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Concerning the window of opportunity quoted by CebuKid:
"This ï¬nding suggests" , the keyword being "suggests" and not "proves" or "Demonstrates".
Also, he doesn't show whether it is important if one can speak a foreign language without an accent .
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In regards to learning, much more is involved than physical changes in the brain.
In regards to language learning, only one factor is that adults think abstractly, and tend to make the realities they encounter match the theories they already have, which come from what they have already learned. This is a behavior which can be replaced by another behavior by choice if a person can get on top of it.
So you "hear" a sound in a foreign language, but filter it to match sounds you know, making it fit into your existing matrix. You do not hear the sound - you have interpreted that sound. When you try to duplicate it, you are pronouncing what you imagine what it must sound like, because you have filterd it - you have not yet actually ever heard it.
To get past this behavior you also have to know what to listen for. One aspect of language is musical: rhythm, cadence, pause, speed, pitch variation. Who has ever tried humming the melody of a phrase or listen for it? Mostly people try to grasp individual words. Then really, really listening for that sound, and trying to duplicate it with the uninhibited intensity of a child - that is also a difficult choice. There is a host of behaviors and choices in this one aspect. These are not part of lost abilities or closed pathways.
It is very possible that the brain changes physically in a certain way when adults learn, and that its physical change is different for children. But that does not automatically determine that a late learner will have an accent? It tells us only one thing: the physical change in a brain. It also does not address the many other aspects involved in learning.
Last edited by keystring; 12/05/10 03:58 PM. Reason: cut last unnecessary paragraph
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You folks know the origin of the word barbarian? It's Ancient Greek. It means the people how go ba,ba,ba which to them was anybody who spoke a different language. They were quite right. By the age of nine months we hardwire how to exclusively parse our own language - it's never the same after that.
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By the age of nine months we hardwire how to exclusively parse our own language - it's never the same after that. Your formulation lacks the scientific caution of the Scientist Ullen, and has the character of the usual "pop science" drivel that gets media space. By the way, there doesn't appear to be any relation between your concluding statement that I quote and the bit about the Greeks. And besides, in what were the Greeks right, exactly.
Last edited by landorrano; 12/05/10 04:34 PM.
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Last edited by keyboardklutz; 12/05/10 04:49 PM.
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"By 6 months of age, however, infants show preferences for phonemes in their native language over those in foreign languages, and by the end of their first year no longer respond to phonetic elements peculiar to non-native languages. The ability to perceive these phonemic contrasts evidently persists for several more years, as evidenced by the fact that children can learn to speak a second language without accent and with fluent grammar until about age 7 or 8. After this age, however, performance gradually declines no matter what the extent of practice or exposure" Neuroscience. 2nd edition. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK11007/These damn critical periods! I've yet to go through this thread. I'm sure the Oprah Book Club people will have some amusing "Yes You Can" stories. After a few years when all the hype dies down they'll be asking "four more years?".  Anyway lets see......
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The problem is that there really aren't any to survey. How many top-notch pianists, gymnasts, ballet dancers, violinists, skateboardists and golfers do you know who learned their craft after the age of 20 or so?
Adult Prodigies are like Dark Matter. They can't be observed. But it explains their absence and now the books balance. According to people who read Talent Books its really easy to become an expert and there are no obstacles. Brain structures has no bearing and you can re-arrange your brain at will. The problem though is the extreme lack of physical presence of these geniuses, young or old. "Dark Matter Prodigies © ". It makes sense. 
Um, i'm surprised nobody's mentioned this but look at Richter (27), Paderweski (22), etc... Those people skipped the child prodigy part and went straight to virtuoso in less than a year.
Other than those claims are not true, even if it they were true that it an incredibly rare event. How someone can use isolated cases as examples to what is normal is beyond logic. Since when did a one in a million, two million, three million etc become good odds? But they get converted into Dark Energy by level 5 so they can't be observed. Just having a laugh.  Initial progress is one thing but that doesn't guarantee unlimited progress. I don't know what level 4 equates to. I'm talking about the level where people buy your cd and you're playing those Chopin Etude at Carnegie etc and winning competitions and the attention isn't from "novelty" from "quick initial progress for your age", an accident (car crash/lightning) that re-wired your brain etc.
I've also observed that adults who start piano from scratch, but have a prior childhood musical background in something else, are also more advanced and learn quicker.
Here's an excerpt from that same article:
Ullén hopes to continue by studying a group of pianists who practiced as children but then stopped playing. His objective is to investigate whether the effects on the pyramidal pathways are lifelong effects, or whether they require perseverant lifelong practicing to be maintained.
Yes. But it doesn't make the late-starters happy though. For you it will. Brain structure is a factor too. A musician's brain has a profile... http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/full/jneuro;23/27/9240 Going even further.....notice this.. "Although some of these multiregional differences could be attributable to innate predisposition.... Gottfried Schlaug and Ellen Winner are working on this at the moment. "I would bet anything that the most gifted children, the ones with the most potential in music start out with brains that are structurally different. Ellen Winner. My Brilliant Brian (Documentary about pianist Marc Yu) He played at Carnegie with Lang Lang this year (or last year). http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1955232874558919934#Anyway the last people I remember to be gifted were let downs. Angry Girl and Philospher.
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The problem is that there really aren't any to survey. How many top-notch pianists, gymnasts, ballet dancers, violinists, skateboardists and golfers do you know who learned their craft after the age of 20 or so?
There is one hall-of-fame golfer that took the game up at age 21 and played at a very high level: Larry Nelson. http://www.thegoal.com/players/golf/nelson_larry/nelson_larry.htmlSpeaking of which...Golf is the ultimate "adult beginner" sport.
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