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Nice piano set-up, frapal. It's nice to see you on the forum; sorry about your back pain.
The only thing I can say definitely is that, if your sitting posture is causing you actual pain (I mean real pain, not a little discomfort), then you really need to let up. Sometimes breaking up the practice into shorter sessions helps. It could be as simple as that you are trying something (sitting unsupported) that you're not accustomed to doing, and so some discomfort is expected, as it would be for any other new kind of exercise.
There are a lot of causes of back pain--- and young guys, and athletes, can have it. If it doesn't ease up within a few weeks, asking your doc (or maybe your coach or trainer) about it might be a good idea.
I see a couple of things in your photos. Nice, straight posture--- maybe too straight. I can't see if you're straining to attain this, but strain can cause pain. The spine has a straight axis of support from skull to pelvic girdle, but it is not, itself straight: it has four curves. Sometimes we want to flatten out the lumbar curve to get that nice, tucked look in the abs. Any exaggerated posture will end up causing discomfort.
The pile of pillows on the bench may get you at a good height, but it looks a bit rickety and insecure. A firm, secure seat at the right height for you (with the feet somewhat apart) may help. Or, sitting on a chair with a back, with a pillow just at the base of the spine might be worth a try. The idea is to support the lower curve of the spine a bit; that way the vertebrae sit flat on each other, rather than having the pads between them (and the muscles and nerves) pinched by an uneven pressure. Simple physics.
Again, welcome to the forum, and good luck with this. Sometimes we just have to try things until we find out what works.
Last edited by Jeff Clef; 10/05/10 10:33 AM.
Clef
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Thank you Jeff for the time you took to write this comprehensive answer and advice.
Unfortunately it's not getting any better despite new set up (I sit a bit farther from the piano, but pain after 20 minutes especially as soon as stop an exercise. For example i will practice the same exercice for 3 minutes in the same position and as soon as i stop, and move my head or body my upper back and lower neck hurts, if you know what i mean.).
I agree with you about the pillows. As Apple said, I will try different set ups over and over again. For example normal chair with a pillow. What did you mean by "with the feet somewhat apart"?
Otherwise I will start learning to sing instead :-) But that would be a pity for my piano and my neighbours as I still haven't figured out how to plug myself into headphones.
Thank you again all. I hope I am not bothering you, promise I will update you when I feel better.
Eternal learner Play acoustic guitar. Learn piano on Casio PX-130/
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It might be that you've hurt yourself and need a few days off to recover, then the new positions and techniques can come into play. Are you very tense when you are playing?
You say you're a beginner - practicing for 2 hours at a time is really hard work for a beginner - are you dividing that time up?
I generally play in blocks of 15-20 minutes, get up and walk around in-between. I might actually play for several hours over the course of the day, but with lots of breaks.
I hope you find a solution soon! Don't be discouraged!
18 ABF Recitals, Order of the Red Dot European Piano Parties - Brussels, Lisbon, Lucern, Milan, Malaga, St. Goar Themed recitals: Grieg and Great American Songbook
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When I say, 'feet somewhat apart,' the idea is to give yourself a firm base so that when you move the hands toward the ends of the keyboard, there's a foot underneath to support the movement. It's more stable, and keeps strain off the back. Even using one foot on the sustain pedal, it still gives support at the bass--- the end of the keyboard we use more. I would guess my knees are something like 16 inches apart.
The neck pain is kind of typical if you are lifting your chin too high, which torques the cervical spine and strains the small muscles which hold up that heavy object, the head. A lot of people think 'head held high' is a sign of an erect and good posture, but I was instructed not to do it (anyway, not as much as I was). If you think of an eye screw at the top of the skull just over the spine, suspending your body by the head, and a chain dropping from that point through your body toward the center of the earth, it may help with finding that balance point. If you rock back and forth just slightly, you'll find just the place where it's the most balanced, stable, and comfortable.
Of course, playing the piano we're always moving, but coming back to that home position keeps you centered where the body is really the most strong.
It's not just you: everyone has to learn this. In a way, this discomfort is your friend; many pianists sustain injuries because they disregard it. What you're describing does sound somewhat unusual and more severe than is really typical starting out. You may already know a sports medicine doc who works with athletic injuries--- it's the very same specialty that works with musicians' injuries. I wonder if you may have some underlying strain from your other sports work. Unfortunately, being in great condition does not let us off the hook from back pain; mine first presented when I was in the best physical shape I had ever been in my life. (Some 'present,' huh.)
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Hi Frapal,
I have to apologize but I smiled a little bit when I opened your first pic. The problem is not so much your bench height or sitting posture- it looks fine. The problem is that you are playing a digital piano and the music desk is too low. You're a tall lanky fellow with a long upper torso. When you read the sheet music you have to tilt your head down to read the music. When you sit up taller you have to tilt your head even farther down to read the music causing more discomfort. Unfortunately low music desks are a problem with digital pianos (they're kind of like laptops- quite portable but with since the screen is attached you are going to either sacrifice wrist comfort or neck comfort). So you are going to have to raise your sheet music with a stand of some sort so that your eyes are more level with the page. The other problem can be that you are looking at your hands too much when you are doing your exercises- you're not supposed to doing that anyway. As others have mentioned our heads weigh as much as bowling balls. The moment you tilt the head out of a neutral spine position something has to hold it up. Those are those muscles that you feel aching after a long practice- the erector spinae, deep posterior neck muscles, lower traps etc... Don't overwork those muscles by maintaining a good posture and you should be fine.
Here's a good little exercise that anyone playing a seated musical instrument could benefit from. (Please note if you have any numbness or tingling in your shoulders, upper arm or down to your fingers you have to seek medical advice before exercise. Same thing for the lower back. If you have any radicular symptoms down the buttocks, the thighs- unexplained weakness, pins needles, numbness or electricity type pain talk to your doc first.)
Sit on a nice medium height chair like your piano bench or a dining room chair. Scoot to the front edge of the seat. Head stays up throughout the entire exercise and it doesn't tilt down or up- just neutral pointing straight forward.
Now slump. Keep your head looking forward and level, drop your shoulders forward, and let your upper torso collapse and droop down a little (as though you are lazy and doing everything your mom told you not to do). You don't lean forward however with your lower back this is just for the upper back.
Now correct your posture. In one motion: Sit up and erect, roll your hips forward and notice how the normal lumbar curve forms in the small of your lower back , raise your upper torso high, make sure your chin is IN (not down- but back), and roll your shoulders back so your shoulder blades come together. Don't raise your shoulders though keep them back and down. You are now in a fully erect position.
Slump and repeat this exercise 30X. Perform 3-5 times a day.
For you Frapal you may also find that repeated chin retractions will help your pain. Sit up look forward and pull your chin directly rearwards (not down). Kind of how soldiers stand at attention but just pull your chin as far back as it goes. Repeat this several times a day. This exercise is good for most people as well because the nature of the work we do. We simply have bad posture. If you have any numbness or tingling down your shoulder, upper arm or into your hands you need to seek medical advise first before doing this exercise.
As others mentioned everyone should sit with a firm lumbar roll when sitting on a chair with a back. That can help just about anybody's lower or upper back pain.
BTW if you want to now what a good seating posture is. Do the slump and overcorrect exercise I described. When you are at your most erect position with that exercise drop back 10% and that is your neutral posture. Keep this posture sit back in a chair with a lumbar roll and you should be good.
Jethro
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+1 to Jethro. I suspected this might be the problem, then I saw the picture and that you have a DP. I have the same problem ONLY when I play my digital. The sheetmusic is too low causing your head to tilt forward pulling on your upper back muscles
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great post Jethro.. i was thinking earlier that he could raise the piano.
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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Just want to reiterate my thanks for taking all your time to write such long comprehensive answers, esp jethro and jeff. And don't worry it is fine to laugh :-) I don't really read sheet music yet, i learn from a dvd played on my laptop on the left side. I still look at my fingers most of the time. I try not so get too much tense. But to be honest I don't feel quite comfortable seating on only half of the bench. I also notice that one video that was sent to me, the nice teacher sends much higher than me (see when he extends his arms). see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-OpESpRYeII am only playing 10 minutes a day now. At the moment it is not a relaxing activity yet but i will play more soon. Thanks again.
Eternal learner Play acoustic guitar. Learn piano on Casio PX-130/
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I think I have found the solution. In fact because I am tall, i need to sit higher. It seems paradoxical but it's all because of the distance between my shoulders and my elbows. In a standard bench, my elbow would be too low and my hands higher and strained. So I had a pillow tailor-made on top of my bench and now I feel much better.
Eternal learner Play acoustic guitar. Learn piano on Casio PX-130/
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"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to." MSU - the university of Michigan! Wheels
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See, the forearms do not dip below the keyboard, just like computer ergonomics.
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You need to sit in a way that suits your particular physiology and psychology, not in some theoretically correct way that may suit some concert pianist. You often see pictures of concert pianists sitting bolt upright, but many people cannot sit that way without creating physical problems. What the particular way that will fit you is, no one can say except you; you simply have to experiment with various positions until you find one what is comfortable to play in. And that position may seem strange by conventional standards. For example, the concert pianists Glenn Gould and Wilhelm Backhaus used to sit with the keyboard at chest level. Most people couldn't play like that, but it was the way that best suited them. One thing you don't want to do is to sit in a way that someone else says is proper. How could anyone know what is the best sitting position for you when they don't know your individual physiology and psychology?
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I noticed in your photos that you have the bench tilted slightly forward. This is what I mean by suiting the individual. There is apparently something in your physiology/psychology that requires this. You need to experiment and keep on experimenting until you come up with a position that works (and that position may change over time as you develop as a player).
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That position could have been the drugs.
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then again I watched Shine and Daniel doesn't really sit properly:-)
Eternal learner Play acoustic guitar. Learn piano on Casio PX-130/
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