Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Are we ever too old?

The latter. I already have a B.A. and a doctorate (in other fields) and I don't want another degree. I want to concentrate on refining my expression and technique.

As far as performing, I've made some very modest plans. I bounced my ideas off my teacher and who said they are quite feasible. After that? We'll see.

Would someone please clarify "big works?"

How about, above grade 10 that are also longer than 7 minutes? And I assume, some concerti.

Chopin's second sonata? (played well)

Old motorcycle saying which very much applies here.

It's not the destination, it's the journey!

Sharon - Very impressive !!!

That sounds very reasonable. With greater effort and a better teacher your results could multiply much faster than with just one of those two. And, if you choose to retire in five or ten years, you'll have a very enjoyable way of spending time and even more time to practice.

Doable. I'm already playing 10 and above. I'm not focused on concerti at this time although I'd be thrilled to do all the Bach concerti. I'm mostly interested in solo piano repertoire and possibly chamber music.

Huge brownie points!

Hey, and so you should! (let me know if you need any help theory wise )

Are people using "thumb" over the actual icon thumb these days, or is there something wrong with my browser?

I don't think this is true.

Unfortunately, I also have several examples of poor/weak teaching in my life. I'll spare you by mentioning only two:

When I was a teenager, my teacher always had every student play from music on every recital. In fact, if there was a page turn, she would xerox the pages so you could lay them all out on the piano stand! It was never suggested that we memorize anything, not even as "just a challenge." I never saw any other piano students memorizing anything, not even the students who were older and better than me. This was a teacher who been highly recommended, taught FT as playing regularly for a church, and who my parents were very pleased and impressed with.

So I had no idea, until we moved to another state, that pianists are normally expected to memorize everything. To say "I should have known better" doesn't make any sense to me. How?

Another example: despite this setback, I managed to be a music major in college. I think I may an A in every theory class I took, with possibly a couple Bs.

When I went to graduate school in music, I was told I needed to take a remedial course in ear training. Well, I floored that they started playing 4-part harmonies and expected us to dictate them. I have never done -- or heard of -- such a thing, and had no idea how to go about it!

But how could I have known that I was so behind years earlier? How could I have known that my teachers should have been teaching something that I didn't even know existed?? How could I have known I was pathetically "behind" when I was getting A's in all my classes?

To the OP: I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. To old to do what, exactly? Play well? Get a performance degree? Make money playing somehow? I guess the answer would depend on what exactly your goal is.

I can understand how you feel, because I still so often feel "behind" and feel that some of it was bad circumstances/poor teaching. Also, I wish I'd taken more opportunities when I was younger.

But I think of it this way: Lord willing, in ten years I'll be ten years older. I can be ten years older with lots of hard work under my belt, or I can be ten years older and in the same exact place musically as I am now.

Good luck!

"extension diploma programs"- Are any of these located in the Philadelphia- Baltimore area?
Also when you say grade 10 what sytem are you using and is it on the web? i would like to know so I can use it as a guide to studying.
Music has been a life-long passion. I have heard similar comments that others have- it's too bad you didn't start earlier- but the idea that piano excellence can only be obtained if you start early is based on anecdotal evidence, and I understand why it would appear to be absolutely true. The brain of a younger person is like an unpaved road- very flexible and resilient- around the age of 25, it's more like a paved highway- habits have been laid down. This is a summary of what brain scientists have found in recent years. But the brain is "plastic", malleable at any age.

As an enthusiastic adult learner, I work 20 hours a week at a paying job, so I have more time than many people- but I still do laundry, cook, clean. pay bills, run errands, have friends and family- realistically I can practice one hour a day. I am happily married and I am just not going to spend 5 to 6 hours a day practicing.

i think that even at the age of 56, were I to practice 5 to 6 hours a day for 10 years, my outcome would be similar to an average child doing the same thing. Not bragging- I am terrible in sports and singing but my strength is instrumental music. We'll never know because as an adult that's just not going to happen, even in retirement.

Every person has a differing set of "natural/innate/ just-there" gifts or talents. I tried ice skating- really wanted to do it as a kid- totally and literally flopped at the lessons. Everyone else was sailing around me. My 2 kids got on the ice and skated right away. My daughter is a mathematical genius- other kids worked harder than her at math but now she is in the electromagnetic engineering field.

I left nursing to raise my kids before PCs. When I went back 5 years ago, I was computer illiterate but I had to get up to speed quick or I would not be able to work on a technology-rich critical care hospital environment. My 51-year-old brain did just fine learning. AS you can imagine, I also had to learn some new manual skills- and they came quick as well.

A piano teacher once told me- you'll never be fast- you started too late. She was wrong. Don't let statements like that stick in your brain because then your brain will repeat- You can't do it. I figure what's the harm in trying?

I wanted to get certified as a piano teacher- so I took 2 accelerated theory college courses, Then got 100% on the MTNA exam. Learned a great deal about history from 2 years of music history courses- then passed the MTNA pedagogy exam. What held me up was I recognized i needed time to really develop the performance so I passed my piano students to other teachers so I could spend 2 to 4 hours a day practicing. my own kids were in grade school at the time- so-limitted time for me. I had taped my piano students - and MTNA wouldn't accept a year-old tape- they wanted a "proctor" to interview my students who were no longer my students so they couldn't qualify! Had I realized that- but hindsight 20-20, and I had 2 years to do all the requirements. So I didn't get the teaching certificate but I got a LOT out of the journey. Very enriching personally.

Now as to why I am nursing now and not teaching piano- simple economics. I do not have a music degree, but before money was as an important factor as it is now, I substituted as a music teacher and in 2000, was the grade school music teacher in a Catholic school. I had a successful piano lesson business out of my home. But hospital nursing pays more and is very secure, so once my youngest went to college, I took a refresher course and went back to the hospital.

now to the silver lining/sour grapes part. I study what I want. No pressure. And I LOVE it!!!

When I was a kid, (before the internet), you were only as informed as your parents were. My parents, utterly ignorant of the path to becoming a musician, were thrilled when others told them I had an excellent teacher. Now I know he wasn't. They also believed the salesman who sold them a terrible piano. I was a kid and I believed my parents. That's the way it was in the 60's. I couldn't call up Julliard and ask questions because I didn't have the knowledge to formuate them. No one suggested I become a performance major. It was assumed, because I was a girl, that the piano was a pasttime. I auditioned for college in piano pedagogy because, after all, girls became teachers, didn't they? Honest to goodness, I saw notes with Roman numerals under them for the very first time in my first weeks of college and I had no idea what they meant. I begged the college to let me move down to a basic level of theory but they didn't believe me because I placed well on the aptitude test. I dropped out of music college because I was miserable being so poorly prepared.

Here are my examples of poor teaching:

I never participated in a recital. I didn't know there was such a thing.

I was taught no theory, technique, harmony, sofege or history beyond learning how to read and play music. I didn't know there were such things.

When I was 17, 3 months before my college auditions, my teacher said, "Oh, we better learn some scales and arpeggios now."

Memorizing wasn't an issue. In my teens, it just happened.

As a youth, I was exposed primarly to symphonic music and knew little piano repertoire beyond what I was learning from my teacher. Records were expensive and there was no Youtube or internet. The last few years have been full of wonderful discoveries.

I didn't know there were levels of difficulty and only found out where I stood 2 years ago. I was shocked when the VCM Summer Academy put me in the advanced master class. I was certain they would uncover me as an imposter. Instead, I was pleasantly surprised to discover I belonged there. I'm using the Victoria (B.C.)Conservatory of Music's Syllabus System.

Two years ago were the second and third times I have played in public; I played a Bach concerto. I wasn't nervous because I didn't know any better! I'm a complete naif. Honestly.

I have tremendous appreciation for Piano World for opening my eyes and teaching me so much. I've been stuffing myself with information ever since I joined.

Deborah, I was also a talented child with a really bad piano teacher, and parents who didn't know any better. I did end up majoring in music in college, the cello and not the piano, but just being a music major in college was no guarantee of having a good teacher, because I had some bad ones there, too. Most music majors learn enough to pass their exams and play a couple of recitals, but they don't necessarily become well-rounded or even minimally capable musicians.

I think if I'd had a better piano teacher I would not have gotten so interested in the cello, but it's impossible to retroactively predict the future. In any case, I am now spending most of my music time on the piano. I feel that if I spent enough time practicing, I could be pretty good, but I will never be a virtuoso. There is some qualitative difference between having learned something when young and lived with it for many years versus learning something for the first time when you are older. But the former may not always be better than the latter.

I realize there is not much point in wondering what would have happened had I been directed to go to a conservatory such as Julliard, (I lived in NY) but I do feel regret.

The point is, I kept playing and learning on my own for all those decades so I never lost the skills; in fact I develped them quite a bit. I now have a teacher whom, I believe, has what it takes to help me realize whatever potential I have. The hands work, the mind is clear.

We Baby Boomers will not "go gentle into that good night". Instead, we're kicking up our heels and redefining ourselves. Based on genetics and family history, I've got 30+ more productive years and I'm not going to waste them!

I can understand your frustration about previous teachers, but frankly I think you're mistaken about the whole conservatory thing, especailly a place like Juiliard. Someone who was ready a 18 to go to any conservatory(no less one of the most competitive in the world) and who has improved over the next 40 years would be playing repertoire infintely more advanced than what you play now.

Ah, but no one can play "The Woodchuck" as well as I can!

P.S. I did get into a lesser conservatory despite my inferior teachers. I just didn't stick it out because I was so ill prepared.

Infinitely more advanced? such as? Just curious.

I am going to make a sweeping generalization and guess that the majority of people who major in piano at conservatories and music schools do not pursue a career in music. It's just too difficult to survive financially, and there are too many really good pianists out there competing for a small pie. As one poster recently asked, what can you DO with the piano anyway?

I just watched the documentary "They Came to Play" again the other day (and I notice it was discussed here recently), about the 2007 Cliburn amateur competition, and it demonstrates so clearly that even extremely talented and accomplished pianists decided to do other things. The person who won first prize had a master's degree in music but even while an undergraduate had a fallback major, decided to follow that career instead, and barely played for 20 years. There were plenty of similar stories told in this film, and this is just one small group of people.

It takes a combination of talent, hard work, drive, determination, the right personality, the right connections, and luck to get anywhere with a music career. Even then, some people decide it's not for them.

So I guess I'm saying that even if Deborah had been fully prepared by the best teachers and had gone to Juilliard and become an accomplished performer, she still might not be a concert pianist today.

There is a wonderful freedom in being an amateur -- you can play whatever you want however you want and on your own terms. You are not under pressure to be perfect. You can work at your own pace. If you want to perform, you can perform, but your career isn't on the line if you make too many mistakes. There is much enjoyment to be had in this.

I believe we're too old when we start to falling apart when playing.

If it helps to reassure I will repeat something I've posted before: In the 70's I saw both Rubinstein and Gould together on (I think) the Dick Cavett Show. Rubinstein stated, as his age was being discussed, that he could take any 70 year old off the street and turn them into a concert pianist in ten years.