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I just came from a lesson and was astonished to be told that Chopin's grace notes are often played on the beat, not before. My teacher pulled out a reference that shows Chopin's handwritten notations on his students' music indicating they are played on the beat.
I believe that some should be and others maybe should not. The evidence that he wanted at least some of them to be on the beat is apparently pretty strong; I have done no research of my own.
We had a discussion on this last week, with some people saying what you're saying but others (like me) emphasizing that most pianists play the grace notes before the beat.
Even when someone dug up some YouTube links supposedly showing that some people played them on the beat, he was wrong: even those people actually play them mostly before the beat.
This doesn't prove anything, but.....it's just "for what it's worth."
I doubt that anything from Chopin himself says or suggests that his grace notes should generally be played on the beat. I could believe that he said it for some places -- which is what your post seems to suggest -- and there are indeed some places where I do play them on the beat (including one place where hardly anyone else does).
In my edition of Chopin Nocturnes (Paderewski edition from "Instytut Fryderyka Chopina Polskie Wydawnictwo Muzyczne - phew, what's the short way to refer to this edition?), there is a page of notes on ornamentation. The last note is stated as follows:
Quote
6) Finally, it must be remembered that all ornaments, whether appoggiaturas, mordents, trills, turns or arpeggios, should be performed according to the accepted principle, i.e. the duration of the principle note, e. g. : (grace-note-eighth-with-slash-through-it-tied-to-quarter-note) is played as a sixteenth note followed by a dotted eighth. In Chopin's works, the signs written in his own hand in the copies of Madame Dubois, now preserved in the Library of the Paris Conservatoire, leave no doubt, from the rhythmic point of view as to Chopin's method of executing these ornaments. There, inter alia, we find signs indicating that the first note of the ornament in the upper staff is to be played simultaneously with the bass note corresponding to the principal note of the ornament, e.g. in Nocturne op. 37, No. 1.
In this nocturne, the example shown is from ms. 37, and it indicates that the C# in the treble is to be played with the F in the bass.
I just came from a lesson and was astonished to be told that Chopin's grace notes are often played on the beat, not before. My teacher pulled out a reference that shows Chopin's handwritten notations on his students' music indicating they are played on the beat.
Any thoughts?
Deborah :
This is what I posted on that "other thread" [1]
"Bailie, whose opinions many seem to appreciate, says the following :
"The 'regular' figures of ornamentation, trills, appoggiaturas, grace note figures, arpeggiations, and so on, will normally begin on the beat. This is clearly indicated by Chopin in the scores of various pupils. In the Nocturne in G minor Op 37 No 1, for example, various grace note or appoggiatura figures in bb. 1, 5, 6, etc. are connected to the left hand note or chord by a diagonal line. In all similar instances, as for example, in the Scherzo in B minor Op 20, bb. 322, 324, 325, etc. such grace note figures will begin on the beat. This inevitably involves a slight delaying of the melody note, creating a subtle rubato effectin the melodic line...."
Bailie goes on to cite other common examples (quoting J.-J. Eigeldinger) where Chopin indicates by a diagonal line (Impromptu in A flat, Op 29; Nocturne in A-flat, Op 32, No 2; Nocturne in C minor, Op 48, No 1, etc.) that the acciaccatura is played on the beat.
That said, I concede that there is no hard and fast rule, but it is the general opinion of such people as Bailie, Eigeldinger and several of my teachers that most ornaments in Chopin should start on the beat.
I am wondering if this point of view is the result of more recent research which would explain why some older, esteemed recordings contradict this practice.
That said, on this issue I would not, in the words of Prof. Henry Higgins "take a position and strongly never budge." I think the practice is open to the interpretation of the artists, but research tends to indicate "on the beat" for the majority of ornaments in Chopin, a practice I am more and more tending to prefer, although I was for a long time in the other camp."
[1]That other thread can be found in the discussion on the Pianist Corner - Members Recording of the Chopin Nocturne in E minor, Op. posth. 72, No. 1.
Polskie Wydawnictwo Muzyczne (PWM) is the name of a Polish publisher. Instytut Fryderyka Chopina is the Chopin Institute in that country. That old edition is sometimes called "Paderewski edition", though apparently Paderewski had little or nothing to do with the actual editing work. They are the ones who corrected Chopin's harmony mistakes, FWIW.
I have Ekier's edition (for Wiener Urtext) of the Nocturnes. In various places Ekier has drawn dotted lines connecting a particular grace note to the bass, showing that they should be played together. In Op 37 #1, that is most of them. In other pieces, just certain ones. He seems to be assuming that most grace notes should be played before the beat, with certain exceptions as requested.
Thank you for the elucidation Bruce. I was incorrectly taught to always play the grace notes before the beat in Chopin so this new information was an eye-opener.
I am extremely grateful to have finally found a high caliber teacher who is learned as well as a top notch teacher and performer. Incidentally, my teacher quoted Eigeldinger's book.
As my post implied, I always "thought," too, that grace notes in Chopin were played before the beat. That's what I did most of my adult life when I didn't have a teacher and didn't have the time to do the nit-picking that I often do now. Several of my local teachers have all sided on the "mostly before the beat" camp.
As I'm training myself to play most ornaments in Chopin on the beat, I'm beginning to feel an affinity for that approach, although it's not yet second nature.
There are always exceptions to any generality, are there not, and I don't think it should be regarded as "wrong" to play them before the beat, although some modern purists might argue that point!
When I was a youth, my first real teacher made those suggestions on certain pieces but I never liked the way it sounded. So I ignored him like a typical teenager of the seventies would. I still do.
That said, I concede that there is no hard and fast rule, but it is the general opinion of such people as Bailie, Eigeldinger and several of my teachers that most ornaments in Chopin should start on the beat.
I am wondering if this point of view is the result of more recent research which would explain why some older, esteemed recordings contradict this practice.
If I recall correctly what my teacher said recently (I do wish I had a more precise memory), Chopin was considered to be old-fashioned in his treatment of grace notes. No one else at his time played them that way, so I would guess that the esteemed performers you referred to would also Chopin's music in a more accepted way (assuming that you are referring to early recordings). Can you give me some specific examples of these recordings?
LisztAddict posted that in the other thread as examples of pianists. The consensus was reached that most of those links actually displayed the pianists playing before the beat.
I believe discussion touched on the idea that it was a more modern discovery that Chopin wanted the grace notes played on the beat to explain the older generation of pianists playing them before the beat. I'm not sure about the accuracy of the idea that it is a modern discovery...
I doubt that anything from Chopin himself says or suggests that his grace notes should generally be played on the beat. I could believe that he said it for some places
If we consider all the lines written into all those scores of Chopin's students, and places where ornaments are written out in full in some places and as grace notes in others, I'd say there's enough out there to put us somewhere between "often" and "generally". And that's not even counting the recollections and teachings passed on by his best students. Think of measures 8-9 of the Nocturne in F sharp major Op.15 No.2, where the on-the-beat grace notes are amusingly enforced by being notated not as grace notes and the first notes pretty clearly on the beat. Now if the bottom notes weren't held and the groups were written as grace notes, how would you play them? Would you suddenly change to the top notes on the beat both times? Which is more songful, more expressive, once you get used to it if it seems strange at first - before or on the beat? Or consider how obviously the RH arpeggio grace notes in the Ballade in A flat major Op.47 (measures 118, 122, 231, and 233) are analagous to the written-in-full figurations in measures 28-32 (or so I thought... until I once heard a really good pianist mess up the rhythm in the measures with the grace notes by desperately rushing to fit all the RH notes in to finish with the top note simultaneously with the bass!). Apply across all of Chopin's works...
But let's play devil's advocate for a moment. Before the beat, on the beat, who really cares, surely there are more important factors to good Chopin playing? And to some extent I agree. I can't recall ever thinking anything like, "Man, so-and-so's performance would have been really good, except for those ornaments played before the beat which just ruined it for me, bleugh!"
We know from Chopin's letters and pupils and friends that singing was a hugely important part of Chopin's life. He loved to go to the opera very regularly, and he raved about his favorite singers and recommended them as models for a singing style when playing the piano, and sometimes recommended singing lessons for his piano pupils. He was a bel canto man through and through and he talked often to his pupils about how one must sing with the fingers. Most of his piano writing is songful. There is very little that can be said to be "just passagework" - almost everything he wrote is song, and many rapid RH runs for example could be slowed down, pushed down in pitch, and sung beautifully. And with that all in mind, it is much more natural in bel canto to sing grace notes on the beat, launching the join to their principal note. Of course there are exceptions such as turns/grupetti between melodic notes, or scales moving up or down to arrive at an important note on the beat, but the grace notes that are a matter for debate in Chopin's music, if sung, would usually fall more naturally on the beat.
This carries through to much folk music, whether vocal or violin or fiddle or pipe, Polish or otherwise: grace notes are generally on the beat. Chopin loved listening to local folk music when visiting friends in Poland in his youth, and expressing the essence of Poland was ingrained into the DNA of much of his music. The "generally on the beat" can also be heard in much Irish and Scottish traditional music; American spirituals including those used by Dvorak; and Norwegian music including the Slåtter of my screen name transcribed from live performances by a friend of Grieg's and arranged by Grieg for the piano.
Not only does this way of playing most grace notes in Chopin feel more natural to me, but I find it almost like "method acting" - being as Chopin-like as possible as my starting point, and letting my own personal view of the music spring from that. It isn't dealbreaker stuff though: I would rather see a beautifully acted Shakespeare play with a few Dickensian or modern words slipped in, than the same play badly acted with a perfectly accurate script!
Originally Posted by Mark_C
and there are indeed some places where I do play them on the beat (including one place where hardly anyone else does).
As a general rule, personally I play anything lyrical on the beat- especially chromatic notes. It just takes away all the musical tension if interesting grace notes becomes mere passing detail. However, there are cases where a feel of "arrival" on the beat is much more logical. If you want a feel of solidity, pre-beat grace notes help greatly to build towards a solid point of focus. While this is not a firm rule, I think that some passages call for a strict arrival on a beat, whereas the vast majority call for something altogether more expressive that is about as far removed from firm togetherness as possible. In fact, personally I frequently try to be sure that even the appogiatura is marginally after the beat, as well as the resolution. I think it's usually a designation of freedom and rubato rather than strict synchronisation.
Something that always puzzled me is that Schnabel said that appogiaturas should always be regarded as less important than the resolution. Much as I admire Schnabel's ideas of how to highlight ascent/descent etc. I could scarcely disagree more.
Thank you for the elucidation Bruce. I was incorrectly taught to always play the grace notes before the beat in Chopin so this new information was an eye-opener.....
Please don't assume your 'old' way is "incorrect."
Remember: Most pianists, including big names, play it that 'wrong' way.
.....As I'm training myself to play most ornaments in Chopin before the beat, I'm beginning to feel an affinity for that approach....
I'm guessing that you might have misstated that? I mean, I'd love to think you meant exactly what you said but from the rest of what you have said, I'm guessing you meant on the beat.
....LisztAddict posted that in the other thread as examples of pianists. The consensus was reached that most of those links actually displayed the pianists playing before the beat.....
That understates it. LisztAddict indicated that he had just made a mistake in saying that a couple of those people played the grace notes on the beat. They all played the great majority of grace notes before the beat -- and that understates it too. It was probably about 98%.
Originally Posted by SlatterFan
Originally Posted by Mark_C
and there are indeed some places where I do play them on the beat (including one place where hardly anyone else does).
Please spill - where?
F# minor Polonaise, on the first trill -- exactly like Brailowsky does it at 0:20 on here. In fact, that's the recording that I got it from.
This very recording was the thing that got me to come back to the piano and really study it after having stopped lessons (as a kid), and it remains my absolute favorite performance of this piece.
Also, do most pianists really play them before the beat??? I'm far more used to hearing them played in the expressive style, rather than as mere passing notes. However, it may well be that the type of pianist who slip across such things without making any expressive issue is simply the type of pianist who I wouldn't want to spend much time listening to. The grace notes in themselves are not necessarily a deal-breaker, but those who tend to play them on the beat usually have a much greater feel for tension/release in general.
.....As I'm training myself to play most ornaments in Chopin before the beat, I'm beginning to feel an affinity for that approach....
I'm guessing that you might have misstated that? I mean, I'd love to think you meant exactly what you said but from the rest of what you have said, I'm guessing you meant on the beat.
If not, I'm thrilled.
Thanks for catching my mistake, which I corrected in the post. So, the thrill is gone!
Actually, funnily, the reason I caught it is that I 'almost' made the same mistake (in both directions) several times in typing my posts, and likewise in reading some posts -- it's an easy mistake to make -- so I've been forcing myself to pay extra attention in each instance to make sure I know which thing is being said.
I believe that some should be and others maybe should not. The evidence that he wanted at least some of them to be on the beat is apparently pretty strong; I have done no research of my own.
So far, various posts in this thread have given evidence that supports playing them on the beat. Is there any evidence for not playing them before the beat, ever?
