Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
117 registered members (akc42, Antihero, anotherscott, amyram, accordeur, 36251, Apoll0, 5150917069, barbaram, 32 invisible), 1,653 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
How to Tell ... #1563377
11/24/10 09:14 AM
11/24/10 09:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,019
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,019
Bradford County, PA
How to tell when a re-what-ever job could have been done better:

1. Half a lid hinge is missing
2. A bass bi-chord has the left and right strings switched
3. The hammers rub on the pinblock when the action is slid out
4. Some strings are not hit by the hammers
5. The heads of the pinblock screws are painted
6. Gaps in the coils on the tuning pins
7. The pinblock is mushy feeling, bushings probably original
8. Mahogany case poorly refinished in open pore semi-gloss
9. Naturals have note letters molded into them, but are not in order

All this was on the same piano, but it didn’t sound too bad.

Others?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
(ad 800)
PTG Journals
PTG Journal
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: UnrightTooner] #1563426
11/24/10 11:29 AM
11/24/10 11:29 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 163
U.K.
M
maserman1 Offline
Full Member
maserman1  Offline
Full Member
M

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 163
U.K.

1. Inclusions and dry spray in polyester.
2. Action not regulated : uneven down/up weights, uneven key dip, hammer blocking in base, double striking in tenor.
3. Main lid hinge (grand) not fitted correctly, so two halves not on same plane.
4. Leg attachments "improved" so piano unstable.
and, the last straw,
5. A 2-inch crack in the frame which had been lacquered over.

All in the same piano !


Bechstein C 1890, Rebuilt
Bechstein V 1888, Project
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: UnrightTooner] #1563729
11/25/10 12:04 AM
11/25/10 12:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,862
USA
B
Bob Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Bob  Offline
4000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,862
USA
I had a couple of Kimball consoles in Chicago where the factory had the wire going to the wrong pins one unison. I had arrows drawn on the plates to remind me which pin to turn for which string!

I have a rebuilt Baldwin F here where the bass string unisons were installed backwards, as were the hammers - the hammer on C was on B and the hammer for B was on C. The piano buzzed, which turned out to be a loose plate bolt. The whole rebuild really needs to be re done.




Re: How to Tell ... [Re: UnrightTooner] #1563851
11/25/10 08:14 AM
11/25/10 08:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,640
PA
L
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Loren D  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
L

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,640
PA
Strings that are spliced.....in the speaking portion! Yes, I came across a grand that had three of them.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: UnrightTooner] #1563930
11/25/10 11:30 AM
11/25/10 11:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,458
Albuquerque, NM
Cy Shuster, RPT Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Cy Shuster, RPT  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,458
Albuquerque, NM

  • Tuning pin heights that vary by 1/4" or more
  • Gold spray paint on the tuning pins and strings (if you're lucky, a true craftsman masks off the wound part of the strings)
  • New hammers, but didn't bother to replace back rail felt on a grand. This makes key leveling and even dip problematic! Please refelt the whole keyframe...


--Cy--


Cy Shuster, RPT
www.shusterpiano.com
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Director, PTG Norfolk 2016 Technical Institute
http://convention.ptg.org
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT] #1564124
11/25/10 05:10 PM
11/25/10 05:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
W
wayne walker Offline
500 Post Club Member
wayne walker  Offline
500 Post Club Member
W

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
Windsor,Nova Scotia Canada
Originally Posted by Cy Shuster

  • Gold spray paint on the tuning pins and strings (if you're lucky, a true craftsman masks off the wound part of the strings)


--Cy--

What about the cooper paint on the wound strings to make them look new


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT] #1564424
11/26/10 09:31 AM
11/26/10 09:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,019
Bradford County, PA
UnrightTooner Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member
UnrightTooner  Offline OP
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,019
Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted by Cy Shuster
…..
  • Gold spray paint on the tuning pins and strings (if you're lucky, a true craftsman masks off the wound part of the strings)
…..

--Cy--


Great tip! I’ll have to stock up on masking tape. Reusing aluminum foil from the BBQ grill is OK, but I think it is time I “raise the bar.”


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: UnrightTooner] #1566681
11/29/10 11:27 PM
11/29/10 11:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 45
MN
T
Torger Offline
Full Member
Torger  Offline
Full Member
T

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 45
MN
Key leads held in place by contact cement (which split the wood around the leads) ..... on an otherwise nice instrument...

Dampers that have jiffy leads on them to help them seat..... properly...

split hammer shank repaired by a pink band aid


Torger Baland
Piano Tuner / Technician
Minneapolis / St. Paul
www.PapagenoPianoTuning.com
Find us on Facebook
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: Loren D] #1566803
11/30/10 02:45 AM
11/30/10 02:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Nor California Sacramento area
D
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Dale Fox  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted by Loren D
Strings that are spliced.....in the speaking portion! Yes, I came across a grand that had three of them.


Loren,
How did they sound? I've done that particular repair on multiple occasions on abused pianos from churches that only call when the strings break. Anyone else think this is necessarily a bad repair? A lot more stable than a new string without the wait.


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: UnrightTooner] #1566810
11/30/10 02:57 AM
11/30/10 02:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,749
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,749
Oakland
I think of it as a temporary repair until new strings can be ordered.


Semipro Tech
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: Dale Fox] #1566905
11/30/10 07:29 AM
11/30/10 07:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,640
PA
L
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Loren D  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
L

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,640
PA
Originally Posted by Dale Fox
Originally Posted by Loren D
Strings that are spliced.....in the speaking portion! Yes, I came across a grand that had three of them.


Loren,
How did they sound? I've done that particular repair on multiple occasions on abused pianos from churches that only call when the strings break. Anyone else think this is necessarily a bad repair? A lot more stable than a new string without the wait.


They sounded ok, I'll say. I was just taken aback to see splicing in the speaking portion of the string. I was never very pro-splicing to begin with unless as a temporary repair, but splicing in the speaking portion (at least as a permanent fix, anyway) just seems wrong to me.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: UnrightTooner] #1566960
11/30/10 09:21 AM
11/30/10 09:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
I've spliced them wherever I could get them to work. Especially during a concert. If they break and no strings are available, it's better than no string in there at all.





Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: UnrightTooner] #1567047
11/30/10 12:00 PM
11/30/10 12:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
new york city
James Carney Offline
Full Member
James Carney  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
new york city
If it's a new or late model piano, I think string replacement is best. But for an older instrument with some degradation of bass string tone, splicing is really the way to go. I've been taught that splicing wrapped strings along the speaking portion is completely acceptable - even more desirable - than new string replacement. It looks ratty, though, so if the owner wants new strings (even if the splice sounds great) then that's what the owner gets.

Plain wire strings should not be spliced anywhere along the speaking length.



Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: UnrightTooner] #1567356
11/30/10 07:00 PM
11/30/10 07:00 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 864
Boston, MA
B
bellspiano Offline
500 Post Club Member
bellspiano  Offline
500 Post Club Member
B

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 864
Boston, MA
Yesterday I went out to a new customer on a referral from a local tuner; the complaint was "separated hammer on G5." Here's what I found:
1899 M&H full-sized upright
all new hammer heads
all new damper felts
all new key covers
all new strings
all new finish
new bass bridge.
The customer was reported to be "so happy that they could afford a rebuilt Mason and Hamlin." (I never saw the customer, and I don't think that the referring tuner ever sees them either.)

Here's what else I found:
brass hammer rail, loose hammer screws everywhere and two hammers frankly separated (I fixed those and tightened all screws);
cracks in tenor bridge making tuning unstable;
cracks in treble bridge making tuning unstable.

Who would put all that work into a brass-hammer-rail piano? Who would replace only one cracked bridge? Who would imply to the little family that this was worth any kind of money at all? The piano is giving up the ghost daily as the child practices her recital piece, using appropriate dynamic range (no banging on the keys -- she played her piece for me). The tuner tells me the family paid "thousands of dollars" about five years ago, I guess on the basis of the nameplate, and when she reports tuning instability, they say, "Just do your best."
It was a very disturbing visit.


Dorrie Bell
retired piano technician
Boston, MA
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: Cy Shuster, RPT] #1567358
11/30/10 07:01 PM
11/30/10 07:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,534
Olympia, Washington
D
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Del  Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,534
Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted by Cy Shuster

  • Tuning pin heights that vary by 1/4" or more
  • Gold spray paint on the tuning pins and strings (if you're lucky, a true craftsman masks off the wound part of the strings)
  • New hammers, but didn't bother to replace back rail felt on a grand. This makes key leveling and even dip problematic! Please refelt the whole keyframe...

Back in the 1970s the first two of these could be found on certain very high-end new pianos (and there are probably still a few of them out there that have not yet been restrung). And to these you can add:
  • Tuning pins driven down so far that the string has to climb up over the edge of the hole in the plate.


ddf



Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: BDB] #1567556
12/01/10 01:31 AM
12/01/10 01:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Nor California Sacramento area
D
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Dale Fox  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted by BDB
I think of it as a temporary repair until new strings can be ordered.


On some pianos I would agree with you, BDB. On some pianos, the customer isn't interested in paying for a proper new wire nor is the piano worth the time and extra trips. Some of these pianos I really never want to see again so I lose no sleep over giving them an effective repair that sounds and works well, and with a little effort can look fairly neat, as well.

A newer piano, that's a different case entirely. In that case, it's a temporary repair.


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: Loren D] #1567561
12/01/10 01:41 AM
12/01/10 01:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Nor California Sacramento area
D
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Dale Fox  Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Nor California Sacramento area
Originally Posted by Loren D
Originally Posted by Dale Fox
Originally Posted by Loren D
Strings that are spliced.....in the speaking portion! Yes, I came across a grand that had three of them.


Loren,
How did they sound? I've done that particular repair on multiple occasions on abused pianos from churches that only call when the strings break. Anyone else think this is necessarily a bad repair? A lot more stable than a new string without the wait.


They sounded ok, I'll say. I was just taken aback to see splicing in the speaking portion of the string. I was never very pro-splicing to begin with unless as a temporary repair, but splicing in the speaking portion (at least as a permanent fix, anyway) just seems wrong to me.



I find that lots of techs having never become proficient at string tying, have difficulty with a bass repair. Since I often give the technical exam and have people in my shop practicing for the exam, I've gotten very proficient and find it to be an efficient and, done well, a neat repair.

Given an old wreck of a piano (or a piano that is being abused in some commercial or church setting) I really never hesitate to recommend we at least try it first. If it doesn't work, we can order another string, make the required trip (or three) back to install and re-tune and end up with a string that not only looks far different from it's tired neighbors, but also sounds out of place.

A newer piano requires a different mindset.


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: UnrightTooner] #1567681
12/01/10 09:29 AM
12/01/10 09:29 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Jerry Groot RPT Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Jerry Groot RPT  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Grand Rapids Michigan
Quote
A newer piano, that's a different case entirely. In that case, it's a temporary repair.


Agreed. I have a fairly new RX-6 with a broken wire. I can tie a knot to look pretty and it'll sound pretty in or out of the speaking length but, on a quality grand, I prefer replacement myself at a later date, perhaps even on the next visit (I'm there often in this case) to save a service call charge.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: How to Tell ... [Re: UnrightTooner] #1567733
12/01/10 11:10 AM
12/01/10 11:10 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
R
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member
rXd  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
R

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
Splicing bass strings is an essential skill for the responsible technician. There are many situations where an immediate repair is nexessary. It is folly to be snobbish about it when we should be doing what best serves the immediate needs of our clientel which is, usually, splice it now and replace it later or, if the piano is ready for restringing anyway, the most cost effective thing to do is to leave the spliced string in. The real skill is to make the knot so discreet that you have to be really looking to notice it.
I have tied knots in the speaking length and, after minimal basic tone regulation, asked visiting technicians to tell me which one it is without looking. Often the spliced string sounds better than the rest of the strings, particularly among strings that are getting dead sounding.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: How to Tell ... [Re: rXd] #1568112
12/01/10 06:58 PM
12/01/10 06:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,640
PA
L
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Loren D  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
L

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,640
PA
I've never had a customer react positively when I pointed out a spliced string in their piano. And yes, I point them out, so if they find out about it later, they know I'm not the one who did it. Many times, they weren't even aware a string was broken and spliced, and that's what upsets them. It would upset me too. It would be different if options were explained to them and they got to choose.

Are there times when splicing is desirable? I suppose there are. But I still fail to see how it is a superior repair to replacing the string. If a string broke before a concert, I could see doing it then since there really isn't another option; but I still think the string should later be replaced, especially if it's a concert instrument.

If your parking break cable snapped, would you rather have it replaced or tied in a knot?

Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, but it's all good. smile


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha's are considered bright..... why?
by U3piano. 10/22/19 12:01 PM
Notation question
by pianoloverus. 10/22/19 11:52 AM
Headphone Recommendations for Yamaha CSP-170
by Antihero. 10/22/19 10:14 AM
Headphone impedance?
by CoJac. 10/22/19 07:31 AM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics194,666
Posts2,881,997
Members94,725
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1