2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Who's Online Now
66 members (AZNpiano, Akaitsuki, Daniel van Veen, Beowulf, AlphaBravoCharlie, 36251, 18 invisible), 493 guests, and 433 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
How to Tell ...
#1563377 11/24/10 09:14 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,127
6000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,127
How to tell when a re-what-ever job could have been done better:

1. Half a lid hinge is missing
2. A bass bi-chord has the left and right strings switched
3. The hammers rub on the pinblock when the action is slid out
4. Some strings are not hit by the hammers
5. The heads of the pinblock screws are painted
6. Gaps in the coils on the tuning pins
7. The pinblock is mushy feeling, bushings probably original
8. Mahogany case poorly refinished in open pore semi-gloss
9. Naturals have note letters molded into them, but are not in order

All this was on the same piano, but it didn’t sound too bad.

Others?


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: How to Tell ...
UnrightTooner #1563426 11/24/10 11:29 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 163
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 163

1. Inclusions and dry spray in polyester.
2. Action not regulated : uneven down/up weights, uneven key dip, hammer blocking in base, double striking in tenor.
3. Main lid hinge (grand) not fitted correctly, so two halves not on same plane.
4. Leg attachments "improved" so piano unstable.
and, the last straw,
5. A 2-inch crack in the frame which had been lacquered over.

All in the same piano !


Bechstein C 1890, Rebuilt
Bechstein V 1888, Project
Re: How to Tell ...
UnrightTooner #1563729 11/25/10 12:04 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,862
B
Bob Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,862
I had a couple of Kimball consoles in Chicago where the factory had the wire going to the wrong pins one unison. I had arrows drawn on the plates to remind me which pin to turn for which string!

I have a rebuilt Baldwin F here where the bass string unisons were installed backwards, as were the hammers - the hammer on C was on B and the hammer for B was on C. The piano buzzed, which turned out to be a loose plate bolt. The whole rebuild really needs to be re done.



Re: How to Tell ...
UnrightTooner #1563851 11/25/10 08:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,669
L
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,669
Strings that are spliced.....in the speaking portion! Yes, I came across a grand that had three of them.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: How to Tell ...
UnrightTooner #1563930 11/25/10 11:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,458
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 3,458

  • Tuning pin heights that vary by 1/4" or more
  • Gold spray paint on the tuning pins and strings (if you're lucky, a true craftsman masks off the wound part of the strings)
  • New hammers, but didn't bother to replace back rail felt on a grand. This makes key leveling and even dip problematic! Please refelt the whole keyframe...


--Cy--


Cy Shuster, RPT
www.shusterpiano.com
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Director, PTG Norfolk 2016 Technical Institute
http://convention.ptg.org
Re: How to Tell ...
Cy Shuster, RPT #1564124 11/25/10 05:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
W
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 515
Originally Posted by Cy Shuster

  • Gold spray paint on the tuning pins and strings (if you're lucky, a true craftsman masks off the wound part of the strings)


--Cy--

What about the cooper paint on the wound strings to make them look new


Wayne Walker
Walker's Piano Service
http://www.walkerpiano.ca/
Re: How to Tell ...
Cy Shuster, RPT #1564424 11/26/10 09:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,127
6000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,127
Originally Posted by Cy Shuster
…..
  • Gold spray paint on the tuning pins and strings (if you're lucky, a true craftsman masks off the wound part of the strings)
…..

--Cy--


Great tip! I’ll have to stock up on masking tape. Reusing aluminum foil from the BBQ grill is OK, but I think it is time I “raise the bar.”


Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
Re: How to Tell ...
UnrightTooner #1566681 11/29/10 11:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 45
T
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
T
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 45
Key leads held in place by contact cement (which split the wood around the leads) ..... on an otherwise nice instrument...

Dampers that have jiffy leads on them to help them seat..... properly...

split hammer shank repaired by a pink band aid


Torger Baland
Piano Tuner / Technician
Minneapolis / St. Paul
www.PapagenoPianoTuning.com
Find us on Facebook
Re: How to Tell ...
Loren D #1566803 11/30/10 02:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
D
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Originally Posted by Loren D
Strings that are spliced.....in the speaking portion! Yes, I came across a grand that had three of them.


Loren,
How did they sound? I've done that particular repair on multiple occasions on abused pianos from churches that only call when the strings break. Anyone else think this is necessarily a bad repair? A lot more stable than a new string without the wait.


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
Re: How to Tell ...
UnrightTooner #1566810 11/30/10 02:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,842
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28,842
I think of it as a temporary repair until new strings can be ordered.


Semipro Tech
Re: How to Tell ...
Dale Fox #1566905 11/30/10 07:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,669
L
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,669
Originally Posted by Dale Fox
Originally Posted by Loren D
Strings that are spliced.....in the speaking portion! Yes, I came across a grand that had three of them.


Loren,
How did they sound? I've done that particular repair on multiple occasions on abused pianos from churches that only call when the strings break. Anyone else think this is necessarily a bad repair? A lot more stable than a new string without the wait.


They sounded ok, I'll say. I was just taken aback to see splicing in the speaking portion of the string. I was never very pro-splicing to begin with unless as a temporary repair, but splicing in the speaking portion (at least as a permanent fix, anyway) just seems wrong to me.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Re: How to Tell ...
UnrightTooner #1566960 11/30/10 09:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
I've spliced them wherever I could get them to work. Especially during a concert. If they break and no strings are available, it's better than no string in there at all.





Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: How to Tell ...
UnrightTooner #1567047 11/30/10 12:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
If it's a new or late model piano, I think string replacement is best. But for an older instrument with some degradation of bass string tone, splicing is really the way to go. I've been taught that splicing wrapped strings along the speaking portion is completely acceptable - even more desirable - than new string replacement. It looks ratty, though, so if the owner wants new strings (even if the splice sounds great) then that's what the owner gets.

Plain wire strings should not be spliced anywhere along the speaking length.



Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
Re: How to Tell ...
UnrightTooner #1567356 11/30/10 07:00 PM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 864
B
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
B
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 864
Yesterday I went out to a new customer on a referral from a local tuner; the complaint was "separated hammer on G5." Here's what I found:
1899 M&H full-sized upright
all new hammer heads
all new damper felts
all new key covers
all new strings
all new finish
new bass bridge.
The customer was reported to be "so happy that they could afford a rebuilt Mason and Hamlin." (I never saw the customer, and I don't think that the referring tuner ever sees them either.)

Here's what else I found:
brass hammer rail, loose hammer screws everywhere and two hammers frankly separated (I fixed those and tightened all screws);
cracks in tenor bridge making tuning unstable;
cracks in treble bridge making tuning unstable.

Who would put all that work into a brass-hammer-rail piano? Who would replace only one cracked bridge? Who would imply to the little family that this was worth any kind of money at all? The piano is giving up the ghost daily as the child practices her recital piece, using appropriate dynamic range (no banging on the keys -- she played her piece for me). The tuner tells me the family paid "thousands of dollars" about five years ago, I guess on the basis of the nameplate, and when she reports tuning instability, they say, "Just do your best."
It was a very disturbing visit.


Dorrie Bell
retired piano technician
Boston, MA
Re: How to Tell ...
Cy Shuster, RPT #1567358 11/30/10 07:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,534
D
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,534
Originally Posted by Cy Shuster

  • Tuning pin heights that vary by 1/4" or more
  • Gold spray paint on the tuning pins and strings (if you're lucky, a true craftsman masks off the wound part of the strings)
  • New hammers, but didn't bother to replace back rail felt on a grand. This makes key leveling and even dip problematic! Please refelt the whole keyframe...

Back in the 1970s the first two of these could be found on certain very high-end new pianos (and there are probably still a few of them out there that have not yet been restrung). And to these you can add:
  • Tuning pins driven down so far that the string has to climb up over the edge of the hole in the plate.


ddf



Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon
Re: How to Tell ...
BDB #1567556 12/01/10 01:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
D
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Originally Posted by BDB
I think of it as a temporary repair until new strings can be ordered.


On some pianos I would agree with you, BDB. On some pianos, the customer isn't interested in paying for a proper new wire nor is the piano worth the time and extra trips. Some of these pianos I really never want to see again so I lose no sleep over giving them an effective repair that sounds and works well, and with a little effort can look fairly neat, as well.

A newer piano, that's a different case entirely. In that case, it's a temporary repair.


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
Re: How to Tell ...
Loren D #1567561 12/01/10 01:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
D
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,205
Originally Posted by Loren D
Originally Posted by Dale Fox
Originally Posted by Loren D
Strings that are spliced.....in the speaking portion! Yes, I came across a grand that had three of them.


Loren,
How did they sound? I've done that particular repair on multiple occasions on abused pianos from churches that only call when the strings break. Anyone else think this is necessarily a bad repair? A lot more stable than a new string without the wait.


They sounded ok, I'll say. I was just taken aback to see splicing in the speaking portion of the string. I was never very pro-splicing to begin with unless as a temporary repair, but splicing in the speaking portion (at least as a permanent fix, anyway) just seems wrong to me.



I find that lots of techs having never become proficient at string tying, have difficulty with a bass repair. Since I often give the technical exam and have people in my shop practicing for the exam, I've gotten very proficient and find it to be an efficient and, done well, a neat repair.

Given an old wreck of a piano (or a piano that is being abused in some commercial or church setting) I really never hesitate to recommend we at least try it first. If it doesn't work, we can order another string, make the required trip (or three) back to install and re-tune and end up with a string that not only looks far different from it's tired neighbors, but also sounds out of place.

A newer piano requires a different mindset.


Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding
Re: How to Tell ...
UnrightTooner #1567681 12/01/10 09:29 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,828
Quote
A newer piano, that's a different case entirely. In that case, it's a temporary repair.


Agreed. I have a fairly new RX-6 with a broken wire. I can tie a knot to look pretty and it'll sound pretty in or out of the speaking length but, on a quality grand, I prefer replacement myself at a later date, perhaps even on the next visit (I'm there often in this case) to save a service call charge.


Jerry Groot RPT
Piano Technicians Guild
Grand Rapids, Michigan
www.grootpiano.com

We love to play BF2.
Re: How to Tell ...
UnrightTooner #1567733 12/01/10 11:10 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
R
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,570
Splicing bass strings is an essential skill for the responsible technician. There are many situations where an immediate repair is nexessary. It is folly to be snobbish about it when we should be doing what best serves the immediate needs of our clientel which is, usually, splice it now and replace it later or, if the piano is ready for restringing anyway, the most cost effective thing to do is to leave the spliced string in. The real skill is to make the knot so discreet that you have to be really looking to notice it.
I have tied knots in the speaking length and, after minimal basic tone regulation, asked visiting technicians to tell me which one it is without looking. Often the spliced string sounds better than the rest of the strings, particularly among strings that are getting dead sounding.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: How to Tell ...
rXd #1568112 12/01/10 06:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,669
L
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,669
I've never had a customer react positively when I pointed out a spliced string in their piano. And yes, I point them out, so if they find out about it later, they know I'm not the one who did it. Many times, they weren't even aware a string was broken and spliced, and that's what upsets them. It would upset me too. It would be different if options were explained to them and they got to choose.

Are there times when splicing is desirable? I suppose there are. But I still fail to see how it is a superior repair to replacing the string. If a string broke before a concert, I could see doing it then since there really isn't another option; but I still think the string should later be replaced, especially if it's a concert instrument.

If your parking break cable snapped, would you rather have it replaced or tied in a knot?

Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, but it's all good. smile


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Korg C1 keys G6 upwards have fixed reverb?!
by meghdad - 09/28/20 02:26 PM
High pitch ringing around C5
by Emery Wang - 09/28/20 02:08 PM
Key Signatures
by ee375 - 09/28/20 01:59 PM
Can't hear the bottom notes of a piano correctly
by ThePenist - 09/28/20 10:04 AM
Apply matte finish on glossy white keys?
by meghdad - 09/28/20 08:56 AM
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
3,000,000+!
------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics201,863
Posts3,007,724
Members98,695
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4