Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum "My piano is too loud..."

Let it be known that I am the first person to run away from a party when the music reaches the level where you have to talk really, really loud to be heard.
But my Estonia 168 never sounds too loud in my 900 square foot house. (With 9 foot ceilings) Maybe because I only play the music that I like on it.

Two questions to which I have extensive experience:
a) Audiophiles know that increased wattage in a stereo system does not necessarily mean louder music. Simply, increased wattage, in some stereo systems, improves the "head room." This would mean that the system has enough power to be heard through large listening spaces, but more importantly, it has the power to provide more fidelity so one can hear "more" music at lower volumes.
If, on the other hand, the speakers of the stereo system are very efficient, then it is possible to get great fidelity with very low wattage.
As an example, I have five foot high horn speakers (AvantGarde Duos), which look intimidating, but are powered by a mere 15 watt tube amplifier. Here is a situation that large speakers do not necessarily mean loud music. Even with 15 watts, the system has the power to entertain my neighbors, should I want, but for the most part, the volume is way down and only heard in the room that they are in.
Same experience with the piano. I, too, keep the lid up and should I desire, I can play the piano so softly that people in the other room will not be bothered at all. On the other hand, it can roar if I want it to.
The parallel is that horn speakers and the piano's sound board/case are "passive" in sound amplification. Here, the design of the speaker, as the sound board in a piano, are critical for maximizing and faithfully projecting sound. You can have a great CD player and a wonderfully mastered music CD, but the sound coming from inefficient and inexpensive speakers will not sound as good as the sound coming from more efficient speakers.
Same as with pianos.

b) Corvettes - My area of expertise. If one was to only want to drive within speed limits, (which I do), as do most responsible drivers, than any car with low horsepower car would suffice.
If a car was to be only a means of transportation to get you from point a to point b, then any car with a reliable engine would suffice.
But cars, especially those with great horsepower, as with Corvettes, Porsches or Mustangs, possess greater torque, better brakes, better handling and better performance than others.
One can still enjoy the power and all the inherent qualities of 500 horsepower and still drive the car legally.
If you have ever driven a Corvette, you'll immediately know what I mean. It is an eye opening experience, same as sitting down and playing a great grand piano.
It may not be for you, but I've owned/traded a dozen corvettes over the years (some of you may recognize me from the corvette forums) and to me, my Z06 is one of the most thrilling and satisfying cars that I have ever owned. And, knock wood, I have never received a speeding ticket or violation in over 40 years of driving.

good point-- I think a lot of shoppers, particularly those new to playing or buying pianos, mistake "in your face" volume for dynamic range and power. If louder sells more, that's what will show up on the sales floor.

Sophia

oldcars

I could not agree more with your description of audiophile high quality high wattage amplifiers an headroom . The parallel with a concert grand or a high quality grand indeed applies.

With the smaller below 6 ft grands I have however often the impression that there is no headroom at all. They almost go loud from the beginning and ultimately end up producing a lot of inharmonics finally.
I would like to see a small quality grand have sufficient "headroom" in a small listening place - not being capable of doing that in a large one - a listening space for which it should be designed for. Compare this to a low wattage (e.g. tube-)amplifier coupled to high efficient speakers.

That is also the issue I tried to put forward in another thread: http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/17192.html

schammerl.

Just from experience, I have a 1972 Yamaha C3 and when I got it, I loved it but it was bright, which made the noise very loud and piercing. I had it slightly voiced down and it made all the difference in the world.

If that isn't your fancy you can consider building or buying some sound absorbers, people have had great results with those too.

Don't result to keeping the lid closed, you deserve the kind of sound you get with the lid open!

Poor quality of sound is often misunderstood as "too loud".

I once thought that my piano, a large German upright that has a thundering bass and as much power as any 6 foot grand I have encountered, was too loud.

I then started following the posts on this forum concerning sound absorbtion materials, and began studying that subject.

I ended up putting 2 inches of sound-absorbing specific rigid fiberglass, wrapped in fabric, between the wall and the back of the piano. This was because the sound was going from the soundboard, hitting the plaster wall behind, and bouncing back, re-energizing the soundboard.

The result is a much cleaner and purer sound, without all the echoes and other assorted maladies associated with ricocheting sound waves.

The piano now plays both quiet and loud as necessary, and sounds far better.

For the first time in my life I suffered from a piano that is too loud when I had got my new upright in my small flat. Notice - not when playing FF but when trying to play ppp.

I think I liked the piano when I tried it at the factory, but at such events your judgements can be influenced by secondary things too.

The first thing I made was putting some absorbing material on the wall behind the piano. But I do not like to turn the living room into a recording studio, so the accoustics might still be too hard.

Anyhow, I have the feeling that the major cause lies in the action, which makes pianissimo playing very tricky: When playing with a light touch you easily loose the tone completely or it comes out too hard.

The left pedal helps me in achieving the desired pianissimo level (it also makes the touch lighter, but increases the lost motion - upright action - you know). So I even stronger believe that what is wrong is not the piano itself, but the action.

I have had several techs to evaluate my upright, including one famous concert tuner. He evened slightly the voicing, but said that there is not much else to do if the piano feels too loud than to look for another piano, more suitable for my circumstances.

Two techs (completely independent of dealers) recommended me to try the new Yamaha U1, the action of which is held as kind of benchmark among uprights. One of them frankly said my piano's action was not the best design (the parts imcluding hammers are from a recognized factory, however). It was very discouraging to hear....


IMO the action should be light but the response must not be too sensitive at low sound levels. In this respect some piano manufacturers has succeded better that other in choosing key lengths, fulcrum points, lever ratios, and hammer weight. Here I do not want to repeat what is said about brand X, Y, and Z, but it is obvious that you can find more general agreement of this feature of a piano, than there are personal deverging preferences.

Being an amateur carpenter, I know that which a heavy hammer I cannot dose the hitting force as easily as with a small hammer. So hammer weight is certainly an important factor besides the felt compression. I have thought of lighter hammers etc but this is already an expensive measure.

Like many horsepowers in a car are no good if you have not good brakes, suspension, clutch and tyres, the great sound of a piano does not help if the the controlling devices - action and pedals are not top quality. Contrary - on a piano with less power and dynamics, you can perform pieces more musically, once the action has a normal response.

Last week-end I have played on two other uprights. One felt normal, but the other, a small Yamaha (b1-series) with Silent system, was also slightly too loud, when you tried to play softly, but that was perhaps due to the quite bright tone and to the silents system, affecting the regulation of the release point. The maximal volume was surprisingly big, and sufficient for the room in question, but the sound turned harsh at FF

From these, and from many other experiences I am bound to think a good action design and perfect regulation is an often overlooked factor when trying to solve the problem of too loud pianos.

And I would very much appreciate learning to know what parameters are correlated to which kind of action response. Although the voicing is also influencing the response and the touch feel, I believe a bigger contribution comes from the purely mechanical elements.

And these parameters could be presented together with other facts (some of them of very little informative value) like number of strings, breaking points, free string length, soundboard surface, cabinet construction, patented and unique (?) constructional details.

I like the lid all the way up but not because its louder its just that the sound seems clearer. As for the volumn itself well theres a ton of it and it can cut throught the entire house in a way that my previous piano a C3 could not, even with its brighter tone. I have since closed off the room with French doors and its now about the size of Derricks but without the high ceilings. I believe the wall to wall is a must for a concert grand in this room however I am already thinking of building a piano room. It would be as large as possible with wood floors high ceilings and plaster walls and ceilings. Only then I believe I would get the true concert sound my piano was designed to give.

food for thought...

6'4" steinway a3
livingroom 32 x 16
ceilings 8ft
glass french doors - 2 pair (actually 4 pair, but 2 pair usually have drapes drawn on them.)
2 oriental rugs 8 1/2 x 11, 5x8
sofa, chairs, bookcases, etc. etc.

(you can see my set up in the link to my piano arrival thread at the bottom of this post.)

i just played, with the lid down, an arpeggio from low octave to the top, as loudly as i could, louder than i normally play...

it came in at 92 decibels on weighted a setting of the decibel meter i have.

yes, i play with the lid shut. i do feel like it's too loud for my ears if i play with the lid open.

you buy a larger piano for it's more resonant tonal qualities, then wind up playing it with the lid shut. yes, it's a shame to play a piano that way. it's an imperfect world.

jeanne w

p.s. remember some pianos have more "biting" tonal quality than others also, or more of a roar or resonance of some sort that will come across more loudly.

By "lid shut" do you mean completely closed or the lid all the way down(no lid stick) but with the hinge folded back?

pianoloverus: i play with the lid all the way down with the hinge folded back. we have a computer that is adjacent to the piano. when my husband sits there at the computer, and i'm playing the piano, even with the lid shut this way, it's PRETTY DARN LOUD.

we get used to, become accustomed to, the loudness of things.

i read somewhere that most hearing loss is a result of manmade things and conditions we have created. (discounting things like hurricanes, tornados, earthquake noise, i suppose)

jeanne w

Jeanne: I lookd at he pictures you posted when your piano arrived. If you still have only bare wood under the piano and wish to make it softer or increase the possibility of being able to play with the lid up, I would consider putting an oriental rug underneath the piano. My guess is that will greatly decrease the volume.

My room is much smaller(12'by 18' by 8'opening into a smaller dining/kitchen area)than your
living room. Yet I can play my new Mason BB with the lid up(although I often leave the lid down like you)and it is not too loud. I think part of the reason is that I have wall to wall carpeting and also put an oriental rug underneath the piano.

I am getting ready to build and am planning to put a grand piano in our new living room. The room will be octagonal (19 ft across each way) and will open up to a large dining room (12'x18') adjacent to it. The ceilings in the room will be cathedral at 22 ft high. I also don't want to set the room up as a recording studio. I am looking at tier II pianos and would like opinions as to what size would make the most sense for this situation. Incidently, the floors will be hardwood. I am open to anywhere from 5'3" to 7', but am really beginning to home in on the 6'4" - 7'. There seems to be a huge difference in pianos once you approach 7'. I guess what I really want to know is would a 6'4" work well musically in this type of room? And would a 7' grand be too large aesthetically for this size room?

Chuckles

A concert grand would be perfectly fine in that size room. A 7'+ grand would be be great too. It's your choice.

Perhaps it all depends on the make of piano. I have a Bosendorfer concert grand that sits in a room that is essentially the same size as yours, hardwood floors, but lower ceilings and there is NO problem with it being too loud. I've also played Steinway L's set in little practice rooms at a local college - They too sit on hardwood floors, ceilings are maybe 12', the lid is up full stick, and there is NO problem with the noise.

I've also stated a couple of times that my sometimes piano teacher has a Steinway S in a gigantic room, with carpeting, 9' ceilings, lid COMPLETELY closed and I have to leave the room it is so loud.

I think it's all in the voicing. A GOOD instrument should, and I know can, be set up to be able to be played at a comfortable volume with the players "normal" touch. It should be able to be played pianissimo when the player "lightens" his touch and forte when the player gets more aggressive.

The problem is that most people want their ear drums shattered when they touch a piano. This, to them, is a "good" piano because it's "powerful". And when a person who has become accustomed to a piano that is so loud, if the piano is voiced to be mellow, they feel the piano has lost all its power and the action is suddenly too heavy, etc...

Derick

Derick,
Trying to reach you. Your PM inbox is full and rejecting messages.
Thanks

I just deleted some PM's. Should be able to send now.

Thanks,
Derick

So would a 6'4" be too small for the room?

It is perhaps the right moment to remember of an older thread from september 2005; "Are large pianos louder than smaller pianos", where Delwin D Fandrich (Del) participates with some - from my point of view - very useful insights.

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/11716.html

schwammerl.

Very interesting!

I had a glance on the old thread where Derick, Del, and Dale Fox all pointed out the importance of pianissimo qualities of a piano. A well designed action plays a central role in this respect. IMO pianissimo playing will distingwish a poor action from a good one.

With the action you control the energy that puts the strings in vibration. Music is not purely a charming sound. It is dynamic playing that makes the music!

You should put more weight on the perfect action than on the growling bass or impressive "projection". For normal home circumstances every medium size grand or big upright has enough of power.

And the parameters of the best actions should be revealed and used as benchmarks by all pianobuilders