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Re: Simplified Music Notation
Skorpius #1559620 11/17/10 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Skorpius
Originally Posted by Lingyis
speaking of new notations... a non-piano playing friend of mine told me about this the other day:

http://synthesiagame.com/

it's like guitar hero for the piano. in fact this is the name they chose after activision threated to sue them.

i played in arcade a few times a similar game called keyboard mania or something, from the maker of DDR, konami. that was even before the days of guitar hero. in its full glory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcWX_SXz3Rw

i thought it was awesome. many quarters were wasted!

later playstation versions of it came out. today of course you can setup your own MIDI station... if you're technologically savvy.


Guys, do you think there will come a point when crap like this overshadows true sheet music reading?? I mean, people become pro at Guitar Hero in a matter of days. If they have real keyboards and use things like this, it'll completely destroy sight reading and sheet music will be obsolete!! Am I just being paranoid or do you guys think the same way?


T_T


well, first off, i don't think it's crap. it's a lot of fun. and my non-pianist friend would not even think about piano/keyboard without this kind of "crap".

secondly, people do NOT master guitar hero in a matter of days. i got hooked when guitar hero 3 came out and... for a pianist it's easy to pick up, but it took me a while to get to expert level, and still it's pretty much impossible to play all the right notes without going into practice mode on the harder pieces. (also, guitar hero is somewhat of a fad losing popularity these days)

if sheet music does become obsolete, rest assured, we'll have something better in place by then. and most likely it won't happen overnight, so plenty of time to adjust. besides, it'll just be like going from one programming language to another. yeah, there'll be some effort involved in learning a new language, but as long as you know the principles, it's not that hard.

Re: Simplified Music Notation
btb #1559643 11/17/10 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by btb
[...]
In the real world, smaller things are SMALLER ...
why should keyboard notation be the only field to disobey this principle.


[...]


Well, to quote Heyward/Gershwin : "It Ain't Necessarily So."

Which is smaller :

3.14

or

3.14159265?

Which takes up more "notation" space "in the real world"?


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Re: Simplified Music Notation
BruceD #1559806 11/17/10 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by btb
[...]
In the real world, smaller things are SMALLER ...
why should keyboard notation be the only field to disobey this principle.


[...]


Well, to quote Heyward/Gershwin : "It Ain't Necessarily So."

Which is smaller :

3.14

or

3.14159265?

Which takes up more "notation" space "in the real world"?

They are the same! But 3.14 is a less accurate notation. Which is more useful depends on the situation grin


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Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
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Re: Simplified Music Notation
JGonzalezGUS #1559821 11/17/10 09:11 PM
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BruceD would make a good spin-doctor ...
but what utter rot to deflect the “small-note” premise by throwing in an extraneous PI to the umteenth place ...
the chappie should face reality ... and “shut up and row”.

PS The lyrics to George Gershwin's "It ain't necessarily so" are by brother Ira.

Re: Simplified Music Notation
JGonzalezGUS #1559825 11/17/10 09:21 PM
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the chappie should face reality ... and “shut up and row”.

Well this is rich. One empty profile calling out the other empty profile. smile


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Re: Simplified Music Notation
BruceD #1559834 11/17/10 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by btb
[...]
In the real world, smaller things are SMALLER ...
why should keyboard notation be the only field to disobey this principle.


[...]


Well, to quote Heyward/Gershwin : "It Ain't Necessarily So."

Which is smaller :

3.14

or

3.14159265?

Which takes up more "notation" space "in the real world"?


Uh, 3.14 is smaller and takes up less space...

Re: Simplified Music Notation
btb #1559869 11/17/10 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by btb
BruceD would make a good spin-doctor ...
but what utter rot to deflect the “small-note” premise by throwing in an extraneous PI to the umteenth place ...
the chappie should face reality ... and “shut up and row”.

PS The lyrics to George Gershwin's "It ain't necessarily so" are by brother Ira.


First, the admonition to tell me to "shut up" is insulting and totally unnecessary!

Second, I said lyrics by Heyward and Gershwin. Quoting from the Score of Porgy and Bess : "Lyrics by DuBose Heyward and Ira Gershwin." So?


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Re: Simplified Music Notation
Manarius #1559881 11/17/10 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Manarius
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by btb
[...]
In the real world, smaller things are SMALLER ...
why should keyboard notation be the only field to disobey this principle.


[...]


Well, to quote Heyward/Gershwin : "It Ain't Necessarily So."

Which is smaller :

3.14

or

3.14159265?

Which takes up more "notation" space "in the real world"?


Uh, 3.14 is smaller and takes up less space...


Yeah... I really didn't want to wade into a discussion involving btb's MIDI representations, and I generally agree with Bruce on this thread, but I don't think these numbers back up the point he was trying to make. smile

-Jason


Re: Simplified Music Notation
JGonzalezGUS #1559928 11/18/10 01:28 AM
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Well, the math "genius" will revise his question, then:

3.14159265
or
3.15
which is smaller?


BruceD
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Re: Simplified Music Notation
JGonzalezGUS #1559942 11/18/10 02:11 AM
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Doesn't matter about all of these 3.14 approximations. The only value that counts is pi itself, and writing out the symbol for pi is more precise, and takes up less space. Similar to how traditional notation says more about the music (music, not just the notes) than a midi graph, and takes up less space.

Sorry, thumbs down for the midi graph for anything other than novelty..


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Re: Simplified Music Notation
JGonzalezGUS #1559946 11/18/10 02:30 AM
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Well, well BruceD ... so you are a spin-doctor.

My apologies to have roughed up a sensitive soul with
the hoary adage "shut up and row" ... it means ... cut out the blarney and get on with it.

It takes cunning to avoid the obvious admission that Ira Gershwin wrote the lyrics to "It Ain't Necessarily So."

Out of this ...

"Well,to quote Heyward/Gershwin:"It Ain't Necessarily So." ... you later enlarge to ...

"Second, I said lyrics by Heyward and Gershwin. Quoting from the Score of Porgy and Bess : "Lyrics by DuBose Heyward and Ira Gershwin." So?"

How the heck can we believe you?

Re: Simplified Music Notation
JGonzalezGUS #1560000 11/18/10 06:14 AM
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Well, out of all the threads I have ever seen and contributed to, this has certainly been another.


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Re: Simplified Music Notation
JGonzalezGUS #1560008 11/18/10 06:45 AM
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I'm rather late to this party, but ...

I really like the idea of using that dart-shaped notes to indicate sharps and flats. It nicely eliminates the clutter of accidentals. It's not yet clear to me just how well it will work. By "work" I mean ... will note recognition improve? My guess is that it will.

Some large-scale testing would be needed to prove the point. But I doubt anyone here will be able to do that, so I guess any proof will not soon be forthcoming.

I wonder why there's so much resistance to change? Usually it's old farts (like me!) who resist change, while the younger set embraces it.

Re: Simplified Music Notation
MacMacMac #1560015 11/18/10 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I really like the idea of using that dart-shaped notes to indicate sharps and flats. It nicely eliminates the clutter of accidentals.
The dart-shaped notes will indicate every sharp or flat, not just the accidentals! They will indicate all the sharps (for example) in the key signature, which in conventional notation are not "cluttering" anything. They're neatly indicated at the beginning of the line, and learned as part of understanding how keys work. It's needless duplication.

That's one problem I have with it. The other is that the shapes are rather similar, and hard to distinguish. Not only do you have to identify their position on the stave, but also distinguish their shape.

And as for btb's diagrams - he hasn't explained how he shows metre. As far as I can make out (and it isn't easy!) 3/4 would be just the same as 6/8, as if the number of notes in a bar were all that mattered!

These objections are not just because I'm an old whatever-you-like-to-call-it. I've actually thought about it.


Du holde Kunst...
Re: Simplified Music Notation
btb #1560052 11/18/10 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by btb
Bruce D might be able to read a 5-flag cascade “at a glance” ... but who else?

I think many people can see the '5-flag cascade at a glance'. I mean anyone from experience reading scores and who is acquainted with classical-period literature would know that this is a chromatic descent without actually reading the notes - just a guess, but 0.000001% chance that a classical composer would write a 2 1/2 obviously chromatic descent in which he/she would a skip a whole tone in the middle of it?!? Nah!

btb, I, by nature, love graphs, but I think the main purpose I would use such a graph *as is* is to get an idea of 'climax' location. When I was taking lessons I was told several times to identify where the climax is and think of the performance in those terms (what I was told is more precise than this but I think everyone gets the idea).


Jose
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Re: Simplified Music Notation
JGonzalezGUS #1560060 11/18/10 09:15 AM
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I don't think we should get too caught up with graphs though they sure are purdy to look at. When I was in the military I remember a certain officer (who couldn't have made a living in music outside of the military) who viewed a digital LED VU meter to determine the dynamic range of the person who was auditioning for the band.

I would have have simply used my ears.

So, where are we with this simplified notation thread?

Gotta go ... gotta practice.


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Re: Simplified Music Notation
JGonzalezGUS #1560061 11/18/10 09:17 AM
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Thanks for the metre poser currawong,

BTW ... wouldn’t dare to call you “an old whatever-you-like-to-call-it”

The bar lines are merely a means of measuring off either 3 or 4 beats per measure. The Grand Stave accommodates 20 m of 3 beats or 16m of 4 beats ... each landscape page carries a double Grand Stave .

The measure width is exactly the same for
3/4 (3 crotchets) and 6/8 (6 quavers) at normal tempos ... however doubles the note-count for racy presto.

Re: Simplified Music Notation
btb #1560227 11/18/10 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by btb
The measure width is exactly the same for
3/4 (3 crotchets) and 6/8 (6 quavers) at normal tempos ...
But how does the notation indicate the difference between, say, 6 quavers of 3/4 and 6 quavers of 6/8? If you'd heard the piece you'd know "how it goes" but what if you haven't? Just wondering, because it seems to me that your notation doesn't have enough information, on this as well as a few other things. And that would be ok if your system was merely a memory aid, or a general visual plan of the music - but not if it's a complete notation system, which is what I'm understanding is its intention.

(I'm going to hate myself for getting into this ... smile )



Du holde Kunst...
Re: Simplified Music Notation
btb #1560424 11/18/10 10:13 PM
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Btb's graphic notation scores are excellent and fascinating, but I wondered before whether one really needs a recording or supplementary information to really know how it goes. I'm still not convinced.

I'm not sure how you show that a note belongs to 2 separate parts. I was playing the very lovely Prayer of the Matador by Dello Joio this morning: the first 2 bars are played one note at a time with one hand, but the first note of each bar forms a separate melodic line - I'm guessing your scores don't show this btb? Chopin would be heck, surely?

Then I had a closer look at Clair de Lune at bars 10 and 12 (5.5 and 6.5 in btb's) and they have inaccuracies. The low Db's are played only once in your score!? also these bars should be identical except for the last note (Db) in the melody, but in your bar 12 the middle chord happens later. Which brings me to think that perhaps rhythm and metre are an approximation sometimes, or they could just be mistakes? Actually, the middle chord appears to be a 2 note chord, in my score the chord played straight after the bass 5th is a 4note Gb major chord!

Btb if you are going to make an argument for your scores being simpler to read it would be better if they have all the notes! Funny, because I was actually going to mention articulation slurs as something I would miss in the Beethoven, but got sidetracked, also something about knowing whether ornaments are ornaments...

Originally Posted by btb

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Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
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Re: Simplified Music Notation
JGonzalezGUS #1560464 11/18/10 11:44 PM
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Some more thoughts....
Simplified languages will always exist, you can't argue them in and out of existance. They exist because a group of people wants them and uses them. The whiteboard rhythm-less notation of youtube is legitimate because along with a sound recording it is capable of transmitting information to those who can't (at this point) use traditional notation. It's like learning travel French, or learning to speak chinese phonetically with no intention to learn the written characters, or sign language for those without enough hearing.

Use will determine whether a language or it's various simplifications will live, it's not a yes or no question. One would hope speaker of travel Chinese (for example) would not claim to be an expert on the finer points of Chinese poetry; and one would hope that a Spanish speaker wouldn't suggest that Shakespeare's plays should always be performed in simplified modern engish so that beginners to the language are not excluded.


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Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.
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