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#1558345 - 11/15/10 03:11 PM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: hpeterh]  
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spanishbuddha Offline
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Originally Posted by hpeterh
JFP,

short answer - no.




Yes I agree. It's interesting stuff, a bit like a mechanical DPSD for the actions.

But it doesn't tell you how well the key action is integrated with the sound generation and response system; in other words the playability.

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#1558382 - 11/15/10 04:09 PM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: hpeterh]  
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MacMacMac Offline
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I wonder whether all of this demonstrates anything at all.

Can I decide whether I'll find a piano suitable based on pictures and percentage forces and key lengths? I doubt it.

The old saw still holds ... you have to try the piano before you can know how it feels.

#1558398 - 11/15/10 04:32 PM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: MacMacMac]  
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hpeterh Offline
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I wonder whether all of this demonstrates anything at all.

Can I decide whether I'll find a piano suitable based on pictures and percentage forces and key lengths? I doubt it.

The old saw still holds ... you have to try the piano before you can know how it feels.


This is exactly what it says.
The geometrical and physical parameters of all digitals are very similar and cannot be taken as a decision criteria.
The differences are minuscle compared to the differences that are between acoustics.

Exceptions are the count and placement of sensors, this is not investigated here.

The GranTouch apparently has more realistic inertia and only the Avantgrand is close to a 6 foot Baby Grand or possibly better in geometry and mass distribution.

Last edited by hpeterh; 11/15/10 04:37 PM.

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#1558409 - 11/15/10 04:47 PM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: hpeterh]  
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Strat Offline
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Originally Posted by hpeterh
The geometrical and physical parameters of all digitals are very similar and cannot be taken as a decision criteria. The differences are minuscle compared to the differences that are between acoustics.

Exceptions are the count and placement of sensors, this is not investigated here.

It'd be interesting to investigate this second matter in a different thread.

Though this one has been quite interesting, I too figured that the differences wouldn't be as drastic as some people make it sound. There is a difference in how it feels, but to suggest that one keybed requires much more weight to play didn't sound right to me.

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#1558421 - 11/15/10 05:02 PM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: MacMacMac]  
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Can I decide whether I'll find a piano suitable based on pictures and percentage forces and key lengths? I doubt it.

You can't deny that the pivot point location is a very fundamental element of the key action feel. As such, you can you ignore it at your peril, though perhaps this is something one unconsciously factors in when demoing keys? Still, it never hurts to know what physically or electrically corresponds to what we aesthetically approve or disapprove of.

If someone made DP keys with a pivot point more like that of a real grand, yet didn't weight a ton, I would certainly sit up and take notice.

#1559046 - 11/16/10 02:15 PM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: dewster]  
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hpeterh Offline
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After long research - here is it ;-)

[Linked Image]

So it is not so very much different from the GranTouch as I believed. Also the difference against the better digitals is there but it is not drastic.

This should eqal an action of a 6 foot Baby Grand.

So be happy, whatever digital you might have, play it ;-) , the action parameters are only shortly below the Avant Grand.
grin

Last edited by hpeterh; 11/16/10 02:31 PM.

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#1559051 - 11/16/10 02:24 PM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: hpeterh]  
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Originally Posted by hpeterh
So it is not so very much different from the GranTouch as I believed. Also the difference against the better digitals is there but it is not drastic.

I'm somewhat disappointed with this discovery. I thought AG keys were the holy grail of DP feel, and now we see that they could be improved.

#1559053 - 11/16/10 02:32 PM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: dewster]  
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hpeterh Offline
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grin sick blush crazy tired wink


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#1559056 - 11/16/10 02:43 PM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: dewster]  
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Originally Posted by dewster
You can't deny that the pivot point location is a very fundamental element of the key action feel. As such, you can you ignore it at your peril, though perhaps this is something one unconsciously factors in when demoing keys?
There's no peril in ignoring what's hidden "under the covers." A pianist only touches the parts above the covers.

By playing the piano, anyone can decide for himself if the feel is right. In contrast, you cannot make any such determination just by looking at the 200% point on the diagrams. So what's the point?

#1559060 - 11/16/10 02:49 PM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: MacMacMac]  
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hpeterh Offline
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Curiosity is the point. I want to know it.

When I do something, I always want to know how it works.
When I was young I was more interested to look into the TV, than to look onto it and that has not changed ;-)

BTW, the image is taken from here:

Last edited by hpeterh; 11/16/10 02:53 PM.

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#1587661 - 12/31/10 07:33 AM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: hpeterh]  
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This is a nice collection thread to show different piano actions. So I would like to add this picture of a Steinway action.

[Linked Image]


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#1587701 - 12/31/10 09:35 AM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: hpeterh]  
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hpeterh, thank you for your work. I think everybody understands that this is one aspect thread and it's good it is. For me this is enlightening and showing some answer WHY do we feel some things in action the way we do.

As an example, DPBSD thread helped me in understanding why some digital pianos sound dead for me, while grand pianos are so alive. That's because in most DP few corresponding keys share same sample, and they sound the same way. It's artificial in some way. In better sets, like Roland SN, every key sings its own unique voice. This was what I felt, and but didn't understood until listening some DPBSD samples. And more.
DPBSD is also thread that shows facts behind manufacturers sales speak aren't so great.

In this thread it's similar: simple physical fact proves, that DPs can't feel the same as acoustic, and it shows why. Also I felt many times going from digital to acoustic that keys feel different, specially in the way they travel - now I know and understand this simple reason; they are much longer on acoustic and "200% force" point is never used, while in DPs it's quite often.

And I see all DPs are deep enough to find other, more natural solution in key length aspect.


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#1589367 - 01/03/11 01:57 AM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: kiedysktos.]  
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The illustration of key lever lengths and how they relate to touch-weight at various positions on the key has shed some light on an issue that has been troubling me.

I'm still a relative beginner, approaching my third-year anniversary of lessons. At home, I practice on a Yamaha YDP-223 digital (which has the GH action.) My teacher's piano is a 9' Steinway D. Those are the only two instruments I have any amount of experience on.

This past year, as my lesson pieces have become more "advanced", I've begun to have problems with tension in my playing, which leads to fatigue and soreness, especially in my right arm. What I found intriguing was I seemed to have a much easier time on the 9' grand than on the DP, my assumption being that the DP action should have been the lighter of the two. (Certainly in the bass, the Steinway does have more inertia in the key travel, but the treble feels much lighter than the Yamaha DP.)

I decided to measure the touchweight of my DP, and came across this article, which characterizes a typical piano as having ~50g down-weight, and ~20g up-weight. My DP has "graded hammers", but I measured only the lightest (treble) section, and found it had a ~70g down-weight, and ~50g up-weight. With 50g of up-weight, that's already more than double the force of a "normal" piano, required to hold a chord.

Taking into account hpeterh's observations about how the short keys in a DP multiply the required force: Playing high on a key (nearer to the fulcrum), I approach ~400% on the already-heavy DP, compared to only ~200% on the grand.

Knowing what I know now about the tough-weight of the DP action, it's no wonder that I'm having such a difficult time eliminating tension. (It's not for lack of trying either. I've been paying very close attention lately to posture and technique.) Maybe my next step will be to adjust my hand positions so that I'm playing as far down the keys as possible, closer to the "100%" zone.

#1589491 - 01/03/11 09:24 AM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: Voltara]  
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Don't forget there is also dynamic weight of the keyboard. You measured static weight that is necessary to play the key. Dynamic weight is the way the keyboard responses to your playing with different force - for example it may appear as much harder when you play louder/faster, or otherwise.


Roland FP-4
#1589530 - 01/03/11 10:50 AM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: hpeterh]  
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Yes, right! This is only existing if a key has enough mass to transport from point a to point b. In my opinion this is very important to get a realistic action feeling.

A spring is not very helpful in this respect, just need a key with a specific length, and enough mass that will be moved by pressing down the key. The inertia is also important which is introduced by the mass and the to be moved distance.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
#1589686 - 01/03/11 02:28 PM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: hpeterh]  
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Originally Posted by hpeterh
This should eqal an action of a 6 foot Baby Grand.
On the acoustic forum, six footers would probably be called "parlour grands". (The p-word is sometimes spelled without the u.) Baby grands would most likely be 5'6" or shorter.

I'm enjoying this thread very much, tho struggling to understand it.


#2674908 - 09/13/17 04:39 AM Re: Actions compared -updated [Re: hpeterh]  
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Hi, sorry for the revive, but those pictures posted by hpeterh are not visible anymore, does anyone recall the pivot lengths? Or at least...which digital action has the longest pivot length (besides the Kawai Grand Feel)?

EDIT: okay I see the pictures from web.archive.org, they are pictures of the action with the halfway point indicated with an arrow. Seems like the PHAIII length is longer than the RM3. Interesting... Just eyeballing it, the Celviano Grand Hybrid has longer keytops making it so that the pivot length is comparable to a baby grand, while the Roland is a hair shorter, and the Grand Feel is a hair longer. Of course, the Casio GP and Kawai Grand Feel have staggered pins for the black keys so those are actually a good bit longer. It seems only an Avantgrand/Grantouch, Casio Grand Hybrid, Kawai MP11/CA65/67/95/97/etc. will have something close to a real piano keyboard feel. I was not entirely happy with my Roland FP-7F with its PHAIII action for example and was not impressed with a Kawai MP10, but found the key length on the CA67 and Casio GP400 to be good.

Last edited by trigalg693; 09/13/17 04:55 AM.
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