Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
129 registered members (anotherscott, Animisha, Adypiano, Bobby Badd, Alex Hutor, brooster, 35 invisible), 1,542 guests, and 7 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 49 of 75 1 2 47 48 49 50 51 74 75
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: mucci] #1554242
11/09/10 11:14 AM
11/09/10 11:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by mucci
... playing real music and those isolated single notes (without reverb etc.) is something completely different! Don't rely too much on this.

It's been my experience that 88 wrongs never make a right.

Play lots of short notes, slather on the reverb, layer it, but if you start with crap all you end up with is a crap sandwich.

Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1554280
11/09/10 12:52 PM
11/09/10 12:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member
TADutchman  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted by dewster
...if this is a good example of the Kawai layering project, color me rather unimpressed.

You didn't want to get involved in a comparison, right? wink

Okay then for this post: given your or somebody else's clinical, mainly headphone based unnatural (for piano and humans) PC screen environment, I am totally unimpressed with those thin, static, digital sounding engineering samples given in this thread, that's including any boring, lifeless, single piano note recording of whatever source.

People be certain that this has absolutely nothing to do with actually playing and enjoying your musical instrument, either digital or acoustic, e.g. HP307, CA63 or C7. Honestly, I'm having a hard time even recognizing my own preset this way, for the rest I'm doing just fine, thanks: I prefer to actually play my organic and expressive sounding CA93 in dual voice mode with live acoustics every day! thumb


K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: TADutchman] #1554464
11/09/10 06:39 PM
11/09/10 06:39 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by TADutchman
People be certain that this has absolutely nothing to do with actually playing and enjoying your musical instrument, either digital or acoustic, e.g. HP307, CA63 or C7.

Yes, pay no attention to that loop behind the curtain.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1554504
11/09/10 07:37 PM
11/09/10 07:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: mucci] #1554517
11/09/10 08:08 PM
11/09/10 08:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 722
Atlanta, GA
J
Jake Jackson Offline
500 Post Club Member
Jake Jackson  Offline
500 Post Club Member
J

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 722
Atlanta, GA
Originally Posted by mucci
Attached you find the whole C1 to C7 set of (almost) full length CA63 Concert Grandeur patch. I for myself can hardly detect any loops, but in real live playing this is virtually neglectible. It's all about the sound signature.
Everyone can build its own opinion from this sample:

http://www.mediafire.com/?yz070u3xobkovp8


Is the new piano in the MP6 based on the same samples as this CA63?

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1554549
11/09/10 08:48 PM
11/09/10 08:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 283
El Paso
E
Edtek Offline
Full Member
Edtek  Offline
Full Member
E

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 283
El Paso
I think dewster's test are very valuable indeed for knowing how a dp will sound. I discovered this when I bought Alicia's Keys and immediately noticed a very limited dynamic range and several dead sounding notes. These problems were immediately apparent when I belately listened to and read dewster's review of AK. At 5:08 into the mp3 you can clearly hear the dead notes. I was playing a slow David Nevue song (Winter Twilight) and the dead E and F notes really ruined the song.

Also here is a list of dynamic ranges as measured by dewster:
Item range (db)
EWQL Gol Bos 23
Kurz PC3X 29
Roland RD700 31
Alicia's Keys 32
Garritan 39
Ivory Bos 40
Kawai MP5 42
Kawai CN33 45
GalaxyII Stein 46
EWQL Bech 47
Roland RD700SN 47
Roland HP307 47
PX330 49
Pianissimo 50
Kawai CA63 51
GalaxyII VG 53
PianoTeq 54
GalaxyII Vint D 55
TruePianos 59
Yam P155 62
Yam CLP330 62
Yam CVP505 66
Yam P120 68

You can see that AK is among the lowest.

In summary I think dewster's tests do predict how a dp or VI will play and I would have saved money if I had read and listened to his report first.

Last edited by Edtek; 11/09/10 08:48 PM.

Ed (Out in the West Texas town of El Paso)
Yamaha P255
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Edtek] #1554708
11/10/10 03:58 AM
11/10/10 03:58 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member
TADutchman  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Well, if that's the case, then this comparison makes for an easy decision:

Originally Posted by Edtek
here is a list of dynamic ranges as measured by Dewster
Item range (db)
...
Roland HP307 47
Kawai CA63 51
...
I would have saved money if I had read and listened to his report first.

Yes, the CA63 is lower priced.

Relatively speaking, the dynamic range of the Kawai CA93/CA63 in dual voice mode can be even about 3db higher than in single voice mode, depending on the selected preset.


K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Jake Jackson] #1554714
11/10/10 04:15 AM
11/10/10 04:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Banned
T
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member
theJourney  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
T

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,946
Banned
Originally Posted by Jake Jackson
Originally Posted by mucci
Attached you find the whole C1 to C7 set of (almost) full length CA63 Concert Grandeur patch. I for myself can hardly detect any loops, but in real live playing this is virtually neglectible. It's all about the sound signature.
Everyone can build its own opinion from this sample:

http://www.mediafire.com/?yz070u3xobkovp8


Is the new piano in the MP6 based on the same samples as this CA63?


It is my understanding that the MP6 samples are from the previous superceded technology that was in the previous model the CA51.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Jake Jackson] #1554742
11/10/10 07:13 AM
11/10/10 07:13 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,258
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,258
Hamamatsu, Japan
Jake, the MP6 uses the same PHI (Progressive Harmonic Imaging) sampling technology that is found in the current generation CN23 and CN33 instruments. However, it should be noted that the MP6 includes additional (new) piano sounds that are not found on the CN models.

I hope this answers your question.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: theJourney] #1554744
11/10/10 07:20 AM
11/10/10 07:20 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,258
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,258
Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted by theJourney
It is my understanding that the MP6 samples are from the previous superceded technology that was in the previous model the CA51.


Kawai's sound technology is organised as follows (oldest to newest):

- Harmonic Imaging
- Harmonic Imaging, 88-key piano sampling
- Progressive Harmonic Imaging*
- Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging*

* inherits 88-key piano sampling

The CA51 used 'Harmonic Imaging' while the MP6 uses 'Progressive Harmonic Imaging', so in actual fact the MP6's tone generator newer than the CA51 by two generations.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Edtek] #1554789
11/10/10 09:47 AM
11/10/10 09:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by Edtek
I think dewster's test are very valuable indeed for knowing how a dp will sound. I discovered this when I bought Alicia's Keys and immediately noticed a very limited dynamic range and several dead sounding notes.

Edtek, thanks for the feedback! Sorry about your experience. As you say, with Alicia's Keys there is quite a bit of timbre variation from one adjacent note to the next, particularly over the low end, which is rather pronounced. And the dynamic range is firmly on the small side.

Although I don't place dynamic range in the pro or con review sections anymore, small dynamic range often sounds unrealistically loud when played lightly. I'm not sure what to make of the really wide dynamic ranges typically found in Yamaha DPs, but it wouldn't surprise me if there weren't some happy medium that behaves the most realistically. I need to do some experiments on our Young Chang to get some idea of what's what here.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: TADutchman] #1554792
11/10/10 09:58 AM
11/10/10 09:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by TADutchman
Well, if that's the case, then this comparison makes for an easy decision...

Ah, if it were only that easy.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1554813
11/10/10 10:41 AM
11/10/10 10:41 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
TADutchman Offline
500 Post Club Member
TADutchman  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 761
Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Originally Posted by dewster
I'm not sure what to make of the really wide dynamic ranges typically found in Yamaha DPs

A.f.a.i.k. Yamaha still owns a patent related to 'silent' DP key pressing.


K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1555242
11/10/10 10:45 PM
11/10/10 10:45 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Kawai's sound technology is organised as follows (oldest to newest):

- Harmonic Imaging
- Harmonic Imaging, 88-key piano sampling
- Progressive Harmonic Imaging*
- Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging*

* inherits 88-key piano sampling

James, I don't personally hate you or anything, but the only term I understand there is "88-key piano sampling" which in my terms means no stretching.

It's my special purpose in life lately to grill any and all company reps for actual technical specs, so could you please elaborate on the differences between HI, PHI, and UPHI? This is gobbledygook nonsense to me. And, yes, I understand that everyone does this - could Kawai buck the top secret corporate trend and Do The Right Thing by DP enthusiasts? I think there are many out here who would appreciate some straight talk.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1555286
11/11/10 12:21 AM
11/11/10 12:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,258
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,258
Hamamatsu, Japan
dewster,

Quote
I don't personally hate you or anything...


Thank goodness - I'll sleep soundly tonight, safe in this knowledge.

Quote
the only term I understand there is "88-key piano sampling" which in my terms means no stretching.


Correct.

Quote
could you please elaborate on the differences between HI, PHI, and UPHI?


No, not to the level of detail that would satisfy an engineer such as yourself, I'm afraid. Sorry.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Kawai James] #1555496
11/11/10 10:57 AM
11/11/10 10:57 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member
dewster  Offline OP
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
Originally Posted by Kawai James
No, not to the level of detail that would satisfy an engineer such as yourself, I'm afraid. Sorry.

Thanks for replying - and I really mean that.

I wasn't asking necessarily for sensitive engineering info, though that would certainly be most welcome - think of me more as an interested consumer looking for more information about a product before deciding on a purchase. Not so much for myself obviously, but for my wife's church and students. If a Kawai DP offers the best keys and sound at a certain price range I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it. But say I've narrowed it down to two different Kawai DPs, one with older sound and one with newer: how do I judge the dollar value to me of the difference?

I get that HI / PHI / UPHI this is something of a good / gooder / more gooder product sound technology tiering, but how will I perceive this if I play the various versions?

PHI is somehow progressive. How or what is progressive?

And UPHI, being ultra, is somehow an improved version of PHI. How or what is improved?

Any info at all that might differentiate these categories would be appreciated. I'm not trying to spar with you or pin you to the mat or anything, I'm actually just very interested in this subject.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1555524
11/11/10 11:43 AM
11/11/10 11:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,258
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,258
Hamamatsu, Japan
dewster, I tend to use (some might say overuse...) the term 'expressiveness' when describing the different levels of Harmonic Imaging. I believe Rimmer's recent post comparing the CN33 and CA63 (PHI and UPHI respectively) summed it up nicely - it's difficult to put your finger on quite what is different, but the UPHI sound is just somehow more 'expressive'.

Unfortunately, that's not the kind of thing that be observed in a Youtube clip or MP3 demo (even one that's been transcoded...) - you really need to 'feel' the subtle changes in timbre. That's why I'm always recommending consumers play-test instruments 'in the flesh' before making any purchasing decisions. I realise this may mean require extra leg-work seeking out a dealer, but it's really the only way to be absolutely confident that the instrument you're buying is the right one for you.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1555537
11/11/10 12:01 PM
11/11/10 12:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 182
D
Deffie Offline
Full Member
Deffie  Offline
Full Member
D

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 182
Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Kawai's sound technology is organised as follows (oldest to newest):

- Harmonic Imaging
- Harmonic Imaging, 88-key piano sampling
- Progressive Harmonic Imaging*
- Ultra Progressive Harmonic Imaging*

* inherits 88-key piano sampling

James, I don't personally hate you or anything, but the only term I understand there is "88-key piano sampling" which in my terms means no stretching.

It's my special purpose in life lately to grill any and all company reps for actual technical specs, so could you please elaborate on the differences between HI, PHI, and UPHI? This is gobbledygook nonsense to me. And, yes, I understand that everyone does this - could Kawai buck the top secret corporate trend and Do The Right Thing by DP enthusiasts? I think there are many out here who would appreciate some straight talk.


According to this post: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...0and%20MP10%20Stage%20P.html#Post1511408 UPHI uses twice the memory of PHI.

Now, whether that's more velocity layers, longer samples, higher bitrate or something else entirely I don't know; but there's a little more information for you at least.

Aaron


Playing since April 2010.
Kawai MP10
Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Deffie] #1555568
11/11/10 12:36 PM
11/11/10 12:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,092
A
anotherscott Online content
5000 Post Club Member
anotherscott  Online Content
5000 Post Club Member
A

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,092
Okay, I'l take a shot at this.

At this link ---

http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/harmonic_imaging.htm

it says:

"Since each dynamic level of the piano carries a unique harmonic signature, our engineers created extremely accurate stereo 'maps' of the entire dynamic range for each key. Next, Kawai developed a proprietary new process called Harmonic Imaging™ to transform this vast 'harmonic portrait' into a vibrant re-creation of the EX Concert Piano. Harmonic Imaging faithfully reproduces the rich dynamic range of the original piano, from delicate pianissimos to thunderous fortissimos."

It sounds to me like Harmonic Imaging is a kind of modeling, applying algorithms to what is probably a single layer, in order to simulate the variations in tone that occur over a key's dynamic range. That's how I'd interpret taking a "harmonic portrait" of a note's response from ppp to fff and applying it to actual samples.

At this next link --

http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/Features/harmonic_imaging.html

it says:

"Progressive Harmonic Imaging allows for even more harmonic content to be employed"

More harmonic content could mean brighter when hit harder and/or a revised "harmonic portrait" created from a greater number of "steps" between ppp and fff, or captured at a finer resolution.

I couldn't find anything with any description of what Ultra adds. I would guess it is probably "more of the same" (i.e. even more steps in the model between ppp and fff for smoother and more accurate dynamic transitions, or even more detailed harmonic analysis of each step to be used in the modeling).

But one thing seems consistent in all the descriptions: It has to do with capturing sonic differences within the dynamic range of a given note from ppp to fff. Each step apparently captures or simulates this range in finer detail.

Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster] #1555612
11/11/10 01:48 PM
11/11/10 01:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,372
UK
S
spanishbuddha Offline
3000 Post Club Member
spanishbuddha  Offline
3000 Post Club Member
S

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,372
UK
Just for balance, and I'm not having a go at you Dewster given your love of SuperNatural, but the term SuperNatural is just about as bad as it gets and certainly worse than PHI, UHPI, etc IMHO. I mean come on 'supernatural' - puke! smile

Last edited by spanishbuddha; 11/11/10 01:52 PM.
Page 49 of 75 1 2 47 48 49 50 51 74 75

Moderated by  Piano World 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways
New Topics - Multiple Forums
First piano shopping experience
by WeakLeftHand. 07/18/19 11:28 AM
Collapsing pinky, causing hand & wrist pain
by forgottenlife. 07/18/19 10:08 AM
Single replacement key for Steinway D?
by jsilva. 07/18/19 09:39 AM
Fantasy vs Polonaise-fantasy vs Barcarole
by JoelW. 07/18/19 09:34 AM
Feedback for Rondo alla Turca (Mozart)
by hyena. 07/18/19 08:52 AM
What's Hot!!
PIANO TEACHERS Please read this!
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics193,061
Posts2,849,449
Members93,915
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1