Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
112 registered members (amad23, ADWyatt, alfredo capurso, AlanB, accordeur, 24 invisible), 2,046 guests, and 13 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#1554141 - 11/09/10 06:43 AM Non Legato  
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 192
vladimiroir Offline
Full Member
vladimiroir  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 192
Hello i was browsing through czerny op 299 and noticed that in book 1( etude no 6 and 7) indicates non legato. Does this mean i have to play it staccato? I dont seem to be able to differentiate but semi staccato(non legato?), staccato and staccatissimo.
And is it even possible to play it non legato with the tempo molto allegro? Thank you very much in advance.


currently working on:
Czerny School of Velocity Op 299
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#1554359 - 11/09/10 04:12 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: vladimiroir]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,306
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mattardo  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,306
non legato is just that - not smoothly.
This does not necesarrily imply staccato.

Just put 'staccato' out of your mind when trying to deal with non legato and think of it as how the notes sound when you play them normally, with no attempt at legato or staccato. If you absolutely must have a reference point, then think of it as halfway between staccato and legato. I've always considered it just normal playing.

#1554362 - 11/09/10 04:20 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: Mattardo]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,370
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,370
New York
^^ well said ^^ -- although I think that last part might throw him off.

About the "halfway between": he needs to realize that you didn't mean it in any exact way. I think you had already covered it with the more general things you had said. And also, I wouldn't at all call it "just normal playing." It depends on a person's style and (I suppose) what kind of music he usually plays. For me, and I would guess for most people, the "non-legato" is pretty uncommon. In all the many pieces I'm playing right now, I'm hard-pressed to think of more than a handful of phrases where I use it. But maybe we're just defining it differently. For example, there are many degrees of "staccato"; maybe you would consider some of those to be this kind of "non legato."


"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
#1554368 - 11/09/10 04:35 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: vladimiroir]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,913
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member
david_a  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,913
It's my impression that non legato historically used to be "normal playing", and a legato or slur was a special musical effect; and that legato playing became regarded as "normal playing" only later.

Vladimiroir: The essential thing with non legato is that you can "see some daylight between the notes". You do not necessarily want any special bouncing type of technique or anything like that - you may think of it as meaning simply "do not slur".


(I'm a piano teacher.)
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#1554373 - 11/09/10 04:42 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: vladimiroir]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,394
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BruceD  Offline

Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,394
Victoria, BC
This is one of those concepts that may be more easily performed than described.

However, if you have a concept of the differences between the execution of scalar passages in Mozart (and Haydn and early Beethoven) and "runs" in Chopin and Liszt, then ideally played Mozart passages may well be considered non-legato in the sense that the notes do not blend into one another as they often do in Chopin, but that each stands on its own, separate, but as a well-integrated piece in a larger dynamic, expressive whole.

If Chopin is a liquid stream, then Mozart is a "string of pearls" (This gets pretty purple, doesn't it?)

Oh, well, as the fire inspector said : "This is asbestos I can do."

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
#1554375 - 11/09/10 04:45 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: vladimiroir]  
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,451
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member
ChopinAddict  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 6,451
Land of the never-ending music
My edition only has "leggiermente" for no.6 and "con legato" for no.7... I checked a pdf file I have and it has the "non legato" in both exercises...



[Linked Image]

Music is my best friend.


#1554376 - 11/09/10 04:45 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: vladimiroir]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
apple* Offline
apple*  Offline


Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,862
Kansas
that was the funniest post you've ever written Bruce. The content is good too.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)
#1554379 - 11/09/10 04:50 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: vladimiroir]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,913
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member
david_a  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,913
Strictly speaking, linguistically, "staccato" just means "not joined".

Strictly speaking, linguistically, piano instruction is a mess. smile


(I'm a piano teacher.)
#1554380 - 11/09/10 04:57 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: david_a]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,370
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,370
New York
Originally Posted by david_a
Strictly speaking, linguistically, "staccato" just means "not joined"....

Doesn't matter. smile
In practice, it means more than that. It means "short."


"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
#1554381 - 11/09/10 04:58 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: david_a]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,394
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BruceD  Offline

Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,394
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by david_a
[...]
Strictly speaking, linguistically, piano instruction is a mess. smile


... and we do our best (worst?) to contribute to it! smile


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
#1554405 - 11/09/10 05:40 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,913
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member
david_a  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,913
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by david_a
Strictly speaking, linguistically, "staccato" just means "not joined"....

Doesn't matter. smile
In practice, it means more than that. It means "short."
In fact, in piano music it (usually) also means a distinct type of touch, while "non legato" might not. I think a person would have to go very VERY far back into the depths of music history to find an example of "staccato" that only meant "not joined".


(I'm a piano teacher.)
#1554407 - 11/09/10 05:43 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: david_a]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,370
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,370
New York
Originally Posted by david_a
....In fact, in piano music it (usually) also means a distinct type of touch, while "non legato" might not....

This is getting interesting. smile

I think both of them equally mean (and don't mean) a certain type of touch. If anything, I'd say "non legato" has a narrower range on that.

But I can see how people could see it your way......I think again it depends on our concepts of the terms, as well as personal style.


"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)
#1554418 - 11/09/10 05:49 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,306
Mattardo Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Mattardo  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,306
Originally Posted by Mark_C
^^ well said ^^ -- although I think that last part might throw him off.

About the "halfway between": he needs to realize that you didn't mean it in any exact way. I think you had already covered it with the more general things you had said. And also, I wouldn't at all call it "just normal playing." It depends on a person's style and (I suppose) what kind of music he usually plays. For me, and I would guess for most people, the "non-legato" is pretty uncommon. In all the many pieces I'm playing right now, I'm hard-pressed to think of more than a handful of phrases where I use it. But maybe we're just defining it differently. For example, there are many degrees of "staccato"; maybe you would consider some of those to be this kind of "non legato."


Yes, exactly - I know it cannot be quantified on a scale. Bruce said it well when he said it's best demonstrated.

I just see it as simple playing without any attempt at changing the sound from that of a basic piano. Kabalevsky liked non-legato in many of his works, if the OP needs a reference point to find some recordings. Bruce's comment on pearls made me think of Beethoven's "playing on pearls" technique that he wanted his nephew Carl to learn for certain passages - probably not an exact representation of non-legato, but one of the many possibilities of it, and perhaps a good starting point for the OP. Does anyone have a reference for that?

#1554426 - 11/09/10 05:59 PM Re: Non Legato [Re: vladimiroir]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,913
david_a Offline
2000 Post Club Member
david_a  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,913
Bruce's post included "liquid stream" and that made me think of something else.

With water running from a tap, there are two ways to interrupt it: turn off the tap, or leave it running and just put your hand in the way momentarily.


(I'm a piano teacher.)

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
KAWAI MP7: RHODES features???
by Nor. 06/25/17 01:09 PM
Question about playing scales
by ybtangq. 06/25/17 12:41 PM
How is Kawai's newest Millennium III action?
by James Guo. 06/25/17 12:22 PM
Kurzweil RG100SE, good action?
by Fscotte. 06/25/17 11:15 AM
Brian Crain - Song for Sienna
by TonyDIGITAL. 06/25/17 09:59 AM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,446
Posts2,638,908
Members88,180
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0