Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Just been to the Kawai shop..!!!

Same here. At one of the largest guitar/keyboard stores in the centre they only sell Yamaha, Roland, Korg and Nord pianos yet they still have the Kawai action in the glass box to show customers how the actions work. Kawai dps may be next to impossible to audition, but you can get a look at the little model of their last generation action all over the place!

Thanks for all the nice comments!

I was starting to wonder if I was just boring the rear end off everyone..

Voxpops. I was very close to buying an MP5 a couple of months back but the ad chap didn't get back to me. If it's the same AP sound as the ES6 then it should be reasonable. Maybe a little weedy compared to the other options i've heard from Kawai but, the functionality looks very good. That's one of the things I like the look of with the MP5/6. It offers good controller functions so is just gagging to get hooked up to a software Piano if you want to upgrade the sound or get more involved with soft synths..

Regarding the FP4-F (obviously fictional at this stage). I'm not sure i'm going to wait for this at the risk of going in to the UK's new 20% vat "it's a stick up!" tax. The FP7-F is a lot smaller than I had remembered from my first play a couple of months back so it suits the size/weight situation for me.

I would imagine however, that it would be a heck of a little machine it keeps the range's 'feature relationship' with the existing FP4/FP7, but adds the new keybed and SuperNatural AP's.

This is a good point, for UK dwellers, but also consider the hypothetical FP-4F might be that much cheaper than the 7F and meet your requirements. I'm glad I'm not looking at the moment

Here's my shortlist. It overlaps your list somewhat, therefore my special interest in this thread:

Kawai MP6
Roland FP7F
Kawai MP10

As you can see three different boards in features and in price range, but nevertheless one of them is going to be mine at the shortest term possible. As you can see the NX is missing from the list - my opinion is if I decide to move up from either the Mp6 or FP7, then the MP10 delivers much more bang for the bucks than the NX. Especially in the keybed sector (really like the RM3 touch and feel). Said in another way; in my view the NX is OK, but way overpriced.

So...anything you find out about one of these boards - please post !

At my local Sam Ash they have the CE200. Nive key action but the sound is not competitive. I wonder why they even bother having both Kawi demo keys in the store?

I've never once seen a Kawai CN or CA in any store I've been in. I've been told there are special stores in secret locations that Googel can help you find, that do have these CN and CA pianos but you'd have to know about them and take action to hunt them down. Not a great marketing plan. If I were selling them I'd have a few in any store a potential costomer is likey to walk into or find on-line.

But perhaps the factory has limited capacity and is already selling all they can build. That could explain the lack of aggressive marketing.

I’m also in the UK and want to make a purchase before the VAT increase because while I think some retailers may temporarily swallow the increase on some items if they need to stimulate sales, I’m not sure musical instrument shops will.

When the new Roland and Kawai offerings were announced, I was waiting for a Yamaha CP300 (as it can accept three pedals and I had read that the vibrations from the speakers added some realism) but I ended up cancelling my order while the dealer was still waiting for stock. Now I am considering the Roland FP-7F and RD-700NX as well as the Kawai MP10 (but probably not the MP6 as I think I'd prefer the RM3 action) although from all I have read so far I think my ideal would probably be a hybrid: the keys and feel of the Kawai, the third sensor of the Roland and the triple pedal unit of the Roland (although there may well be a similar three pedal set up for the Kawai MP10, I’m not sure). I am more concerned with action than with sound.

I telephoned Rose Morris in London as they stock Kawai, Roland and Yamaha, among others (although they don’t necessarily have every model in stock and available to try), and asked them where people’s preferences tend to lie when it comes to (realistic) action. The gentleman I spoke to said that most people who tried the different brands preferred the Kawai action.

So, I wish the Kawai MP10 had the third sensor (which I understand it does not) and a handy three pedal unit (which it may do).

A question for anyone feeling kind enough to answer it... leaving to one side any sensor-less escapement simulations that a digital piano may have, does the absence of the third sensor essentially mean that a digital piano will behave more like an acoustic upright rather than an acoustic grand? My understanding is that the third sensor gives the ability to play fast repetitions of notes without full key return in the way that one could on a grand but as one could not on an upright.

I am probably spending far too much time agonising over the decision as I’m sure they are all fine instruments and I would be delighted with any of them.

Thank you to everyone for all your helpful posts!

I think you are very close to correct.

Key velocity is measured by the bottom two switches in all cases (2 and 3 sensor pianos) The key must rise above the second from the bottom sensor if velocity is the be measured

The damper is always controlled by the upper most sensor

In a two sensor piano the top sensor must do double duty.

Typically the top sensor is not at 100% key height but maybe 80% so even with only two sensors the key only has to come up to about 80% to repeat a note. The difference is if the note must be damped before it can by replayed.


I think the only part of your statement that is not acuate was "full key return". it should have read "almost full return, at the point where note is damped".

I second ChrisA's response. However, in my piano tuner/technician's book, it does make the simplification that the strings are damped when the keys have "fully" returned. (but they really mean "almost fully returned", I guess)

Greg.

Thank you ChrisA and sullivang for your helpful responses and clarification.

Boring UK VAT conversation alert...

The way I look at this VAT rise is. When the VAT went down to 15%, there didn't really seem to be a lot of difference to the consumer pricing as VAT is obviously taken through the whole trading process as well as at the till and during that whole process, traders were noted as taking full advantage of that 2.5% for themselves.

Even some of the shops I usually go in had exactly the same prices as before the VAT drop. Turn this the other way around and you can rest assured that the traders will be passing that 2.5% all the way along to the till at every given opportunity. That's capitalism i'm afraid and come January, i'm going to make sure that all the money I have stays with me as much as possible as we really don't know how much stuff is really going to rise..

Quick calculation for Uk purchasers. £1000 purchase plus 17.5% is obviously £1175 (£175 tax). If the manufacturer is charging 17.5% to the reseller then that amount rises to £1380 (£380). The same calculation with the 20% vat = £1440 (£60 more expensive than before). If there is a third process of VAT from the manufacturer to the customer then your looking at £1621.50 or £1728 @ 20%. That's a lot of money. Over a £100 rise in a £1000 pound item which is a 10% rise. But hey, i'm not an economist so I am speculating on if that third process is there in any situation or really if I understand the process at all..

Regarding the three pedal situation, I'm under the impression that there are 1/4" connectors on the MP6/10 for three pedals. Could be wrong on the MP6 but.. I don't think they throw them in when you buy though, if that's your point??


Regards. Rimmer



I always put myself through this painful investigative process with every substantial purchase I make. I think it's a sensible way to work as long as it doesn't become a constant sport (buy/sell/buy/sell). Once I have made my decision, I get to sit back and enjoy the result of all the hard work I put in to choosing the correct thing for me.. Each to their own but for me, it pays to trawl through the details..

Regards. Rimmer

If you're constantly looking for the "best", you might want to watch this clip: "The Paradox of Choice", by Barry Schwartz.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoM



Greg.

Rimmer,

The MP10 is shipped with a double pedal unit (for soft and sustain), however an additional switch pedal can also be connected - then all three can be freely assigned to soft, sostenuto, sustain etc.

Cheers,
James
x

Thx. How about the Mp6? I was struggling with the PDF pictures in the brochure.. It's probably obvious but i'm being lazy and asking you as you're here..

The VAT is transparent for the intermediaries (assuming their VAT registered).
eg: (using 20% for easier sums) Manufacturer sells to wholesaler at £500 + VAT = £600 gross (VAT £100)
Wholesaler sells to retailer at £550 + VAT = £660 (VAT £110)
Retailer sells to customer at £600 + VAT = £720 (VAT £120)

Retailer's VAT return: VAT in £120 (from consumer) VAT out £110 (to wholesaler), pays £10 VAT to taxman.
Wholesaler's VAT return: VAT in £110 (from retailer) VAT out £100 (to manufacturer), pays £10 VAT to taxman.
Manufacturer's VAT return: VAT in £100 (from wholesaler) VAT out £0 (pretend its made out of thin air), pays £100 VAT to taxman.

Overall result the consumer's VAT of £120 is paid to the taxman by the three businesses involved.

Cheers. I'm self employed and not VAT registered so I don't know the ins and outs other than you can claim VAT money back if you are registered and spend wholesale + VAT. Cheers for clearing that up..

I don’t need the pedals to come free with my purchase, but I’m quite keen to buy a stage piano that can accept three (properly assigned) pedals and although I have contemplated constructing something to keep three separate pedals neatly together I would prefer a three pedal unit, like the one available from Roland.

Can't the new RPU-3 pedal unit from Roland be used on the MP6/MP10?
After all, it uses three, separate, standard 1/4" connectors...

I would be very interested to know if it would be compatible. I recently read a thread on these boards discussing the use of differently branded pedals and dps, but have no experience myself of mixing and matching in that way.

Painfully long post alert..

Okay. Today I got a go on the Kawai MP6...!

I couldn't find my decent headphones at home as they are in a box somewhere following moving house so I relied on a pair of shop headphones. Not great but reasonable for the job.

First things first. I decided that if the MP6 is essentially the main AP sound (plus a couple of new ones being the Jazz and maybe a pop piano, correct me if i'm wrong) and keyboard of the CN33, then I should know what I was up against. True enough, the keyboard felt very similar, maybe not quite the same but similar. If anything, it felt a little bit more hard work than the CN33 but still very playable. If the beds are indeed identical then there is either something a little harder on the MP6 or it's just very new compared to the somewhat shop soiled CN33.

The main concert grand piano was very similar again to the CN33 but for some reason (and I yoyo'd across the shop between the two to try and gauge any differences...!) it sounded a little different. Not better or worse really, just like there was a slightly different experience to the stereo image or something. The MP6 sounded a little more monophonic to me.. I'll add that I was testing these without any reverb or fx at this stage. I don't want to move away from the AP's at the moment as those sounds are the main comparison I can make between the models I have become somewhat familiar with, as well as that the people reading this may have had some experience with them, in some format or another..!

I sat with the MP6 for around 20 mins running through it's piano sounds. The mellow piano was nice and dark and less thunky than the primary piano. I've started to associate the Kawai piano sound on the CN33 as being quite middly and taut almost. Mellow in a definite and present sort of way. This is purely my ears of course and to some extent maybe the headphones I was using. This is the same with the MP6 to my ears although there was definitely a difference, though subtle resonant to it.

To cut a long story short (..er than it is going to be anyway!!), I played both pianos through headphones until my ears and hands hurt. The MP6 sort of became the tougher of the two to play but my hands aren't used to those sorts of movements as, after all... i'm primarily a guitarist and wannabe pianist/keyboard player. I'm not sure if that is simply because the keyboard is new or not but it is physically harder to play than the CN33 (again, age and stuff I suppose). Did I like the action? I preferred the way the CN33 felt as it seemed less effort but otherwise it feels, and sounds very very similar.

After a while, I jumped to the CA63 (granted an unfair comparison but..) and instantly noticed that the sound was more expressive and open, with a better stereo presence than either of the previous pianos. The sounds wasn't totally different, but I thought it offered a more expressive and expensive sound. It didn't take very long to realise this was the case.. (i'd like to take this opportunity to slip this in to correct something I said in a previous post regarding the CA93, and not liking it as much as the CA63. The piano I played that brought me to that conclusion was an older CA91 with a CA93 label on it They didn't have the CA93 there but if it's better than the excellent CA63, then it must be awesome..).

So. At this stage, I was reasonably impressed by the MP6's AP as it has a very real sound which, well... didn't quite reach out to me as does the CA63. Again, I don't want to dwell on the CA63 as it's not competing with the MP6. I'd imagine that's the MP10's job so, if your wanting a portable CA63 and it sounds and feels like the CA63, then I think it's going to be a real cracker of a portable (..ish) stage piano. The MP6 in a live setting would probably be a real contender with the RD range, IF you like that sort of piano sound and can accept that it might not quite be as expressive as the SN or it's more expensive Kawai relatives. It doesn't open up quite like the SN stuff does when you play it harder. A bit like it's slightly shrouded in a blanket when you expect it to sing out a little more. It's more basic in it's sound like some part of it's slightly missing or has been turned off. This is seriously getting in to personal preference territory here and it's not a preference that is anyone elses but mine. I do however think that most people would agree that it's not quite all there.

Considering the PHI and UPHI differences. If the difference in the sound of the CN33/MP6 and the CA63 (probably MP10 too) is more satisfying 'because' of the UPHI then I would say it's a bit of a shame that the MP6 doesn't have the UPHI. Not so the CN33 as it's priced very well and it would truly tread on the
toes of the CN63. The MP6 does compete very well with the current RD300GX. It's simply better to me ears and feels much more real. If the RD300NX comes out with PHIII and the SN sounds, then that could pave a toughish road for the MP6, and I suspect the people that will choose it over the theoretical RD300NX would have to on the strength of it's organ and EP sounds primarily, as well as it's sturdier appearance and very simple but effective (and fast) control system.

Back to the meat and potatoes.

I ended up playing through a load of the other sounds on the MP6 and whilst I didn't spend a lot of time running through them individually, I did get a reasonable idea of the EP's and the Tone Wheel stuff as well as some of the sounds that interest me less like, choirs and brass sounds. The EP's sound better to me on the whole than the Roland SN stuff I have heard. There is something more grunty and definite about them. They sound older in a way which is something I prefer when listening to, well.. older EP's. Some of them needed some tweeking and I didn't much like the way they had occasionally set up the tremolo defaults. There is definitely some useable grinding EP's in there and some nice mellow options as well. The Tone wheel stuff really stood out as did the organ sounds in general. I personally was verrry impressed with that stuff. The whole machine started to show that it was more Access Virus than Nord (if some people know what I mean by that..). Everything from a reasonable church organ to many grinding and wurling organs to a half decent hammond type experience (hey, nothing sounds like a real B3 through a Leslie but...). It was really testing for me as during my playing of the the organs and EP's, I wish I had more than a couple of tunes I could roughly play. This is essentially my short coming with all my reviews and should be duly noted.

As far as the case and build quality is concerned. The thing feels very solid and generally fit for the road, I would think. I would feel much more comfortable throwing it in the back of a truck than any of the RD stuff i've had experience with and that's not to say that the RD stuff isn't made for the road, or capable of surviving the road. It just doesn't look or feel as solid as the MP6. The controls on the MP6 are very easy to work with. I can imagine it being dead easy to adjust on the fly during a gig and the zone system is really straight forward and simple to get your head around. The little screen that shows you were you are in the keyboard is sufficient and that's about it. It's not confusing like the yamaha CP50 was to my eyes.

So. I don't know where I am with this stuff any more. I really wanted to like the MP6 and find a way to see a value in owning one over the FP7-F. In some ways, it's won me over. In others it hasn't. Why? well, I think the keyboard on the machine is very good (noticeably improved over the ES6 IF you think a more authentic piano keyboard is an improvement..). It sounds more real than the ES6 but not to as real as the CA63 (although much closer to the CA63 than the ES6..!), which I would compare closely to the Roland HP307 if I was serious about buying either of those two 'home' pianos.

I think the choice between my buying of either the FP7-F or the MP6 is much easier (although tough...) than choosing between the CA63 and the HP307, hypothetically speaking. Considering the HP307 offers the keyboard and sound technology that is being plumbed in to the FP7-F, it makes the choice between the two much easier for me to see. The MP6 is a different keyboard to the FP7-F. More rugged and much more the live keyboard for the eclectic musician i'd expect. If I was choosing for live work only, the MP6 would probably be.. well, nearly the one I would choose. I would have to start looking more closely at used RD-700GXF's (if I was trying to compete on price), as it would seem the better comparison of two different sounding units than the FP7-F and the MP6, if that makes sense?

Despite the current FP7's plasticky frame and therefore a less than reassuring proposition for road use, the MP6 might be the better live keyboard choice for someone in a Jazz trio say.. THAT is for someone to figure out for themselves as those situations are out of my personal bubble of experience. For someone like me that is looking for a great sounding home/boot of the car 88 key weighted piano, then the FP7-F is probably the way I will head, if for no other reason than I personally find the keybed on the Roland easier and more tactile, and think that the HP307 sound engine takes the lead in expression over the MP6.

I see the MP6 as a live version of the CN33, loosely speaking. If you like the CN33 and want to take it on the road occasionally, the MP6 is surely the road to travel if you still want to love your CN33 when you get home (and you have every reason to..). If you want the CA63 road version, then I would say the MP6 doesn't quite match it's sound. Would you notice that live? probably not at all.. You would however probably notice the different key action more than the sound. That could be awkward for some. I don't know.. Step up the MP10??

If you wanted to take the Roland HP307 on the road and didn't want to spend the money on a RD700GXF or the 700NX, then the FP7-F promises to offer you pretty much the same experience for less money. That's a notable situation that may affect many people's choice. If the MP6 offered the sound of the CA63 then it would be very very attractive. As it offers the CN33 sound, then it's attractive and that's it for me.

I hope my experiences have at least offered something to others in my current tricky situation. It's a awkward for me to offer advice to people based on my limited playing ability so I lean back on my years of humming and haaa'ring during difficult choices whilst deliberating the best road for someone (usually myself) when making a decision on what musical instrument to buy. Kawai have impressed me greatly by the build quality as well as the feel and sounds of some of their instruments. The Roland's appear to have an edge over the sound engine in the Kawai but i'd say that's really hard to impossible to notice when your playing the CA63 up against the HP307 (the CA being £500 cheap in the Uk as well..) and has got to come down to the personal preference on the different sounds and feel. Both excellent to me. It's easier to see those differences whilst playing the MP6 versus the FP7-F (granted using the HP307 so it's academic at this stage) when considering it purely as an Acoustic Piano emulation.

I personally think the FP7-F is going to be the better choice for the AP side of a DP than the MP6 but hey, that's only my opinion. It's loosely my opinion that the MP6 is a better organ and probably a much better EP as well. They are both great machines in their own way. The MP6 is cheaper too so that may be a deal breaker for potential Kawai/Roland swingers.

Basically. Well done to both companies. In this price range, Yamaha is a furlong behind to my ears but i'm sure they'll catch up at some point. I can only hope that people get a chance to experience the MP6 if they have already committed themselves to the Roland SN, as it's ... different. The MP10 is probably going to be a great all round machine and if I had the extra cash at this stage (more the space..!), i'd probably be heading in that direction over the FP7-F or any of the RD stuff..

Regards. Rimmer

Rimmer, that was a very thorough, fair and considered evaluation - thanks!

It serves to confirm what I'd suspected from listening to the demos of the MP6 and MP10 - the 10 is a much more professional board in its sound engine and expressiveness. You may be right about an audience not noticing in the context of a band performance, but the keyboard player will notice - and possibly feel hampered - if s/he can't play with a full range of expression. There's certainly a place for the MP6 at its fairly reasonable price point, but Kawai needs to bring out a lighter UPHI portable to capture the slice of the market that's looking for a top-quality, easily transported stage piano.

My search continues...