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PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
#1552968 11/07/10 02:28 PM
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Searching the roland.com site I found a couple of pictures of the two keyboards and have been playing spot the difference:

PHA III Ivory Feel with Escapement

[Linked Image]


PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement

[Linked Image]


Apart from the obvious difference in colour, I notice that the non-S version lacks the 'bumpers' under each key (for want of a better word).

Anyone have any idea what they are for?

(Sorry for wasting your time if these pictures have been published before and discussed on another thread)

I cannot wait to demo an FP7F and if the action is anything like as good as that on the HP307 then I suspect that at that price they will fly out of the shops.






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Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
DazedAndConfused #1552982 11/07/10 02:53 PM
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Which 'bumpers' are you talking about? They look pretty similar to me..


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Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
DazedAndConfused #1553018 11/07/10 03:37 PM
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Thank you!
The only difference I see is at the keyfront the lower edge.
This is probably where the ivory surface is snapped into the corpus of the key.
It has nothing to do with key movement or weight.

I think basically that is the same construction if not exactly the same.
Only the keys are a little bit different. Of course there could be weights inside of the key, but I believe, if so, then the image would show it proudly.

I see another thing: With the old PHA it happened often that the hammers broke. Apparently this has been fixed, this critical part where it broke is now made from metal, not from plastic.

Technically they could use thicker or thinner metal plates for the hammers, so the weight could differ.

Peter

Last edited by hpeterh; 11/07/10 03:51 PM.

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Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
DazedAndConfused #1553041 11/07/10 04:00 PM
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Now the question becomes if the FP-7F will be QUIETER than the HP-307...?

Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
DazedAndConfused #1553053 11/07/10 04:21 PM
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When you read the description on Roland website, it seems that the only difference between S and non-S PHA-III is the key material.


[Linked Image]
Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
7even #1553062 11/07/10 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 7even
Which 'bumpers' are you talking about? They look pretty similar to me..


Look at the bottom edge at the front of the white keys and spot the difference ..

Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
hpeterh #1553064 11/07/10 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by hpeterh
Thank you!
The only difference I see is at the keyfront the lower edge.
This is probably where the ivory surface is snapped into the corpus of the key.
It has nothing to do with key movement or weight.

I think basically that is the same construction if not exactly the same.
Only the keys are a little bit different. Of course there could be weights inside of the key, but I believe, if so, then the image would show it proudly.

I see another thing: With the old PHA it happened often that the hammers broke. Apparently this has been fixed, this critical part where it broke is now made from metal, not from plastic.

Technically they could use thicker or thinner metal plates for the hammers, so the weight could differ.

Peter


Thanks for that explanation Peter.

Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
hpeterh #1553081 11/07/10 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by hpeterh
Thank you!

I think basically that is the same construction if not exactly the same.
Only the keys are a little bit different. Of course there could be weights inside of the key, but I believe, if so, then the image would show it proudly.

Technically they could use thicker or thinner metal plates for the hammers, so the weight could differ.

Peter

The metal hammer bit at the very back uses different sizes. I have the PHAII and it has 4 different sizes of hammers for the graded keyboard effect. No weights inside the key.

Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
DazedAndConfused #1553101 11/07/10 05:20 PM
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Interesting that they show you the 10 lbs of MDF under the keybed too.

Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
DazedAndConfused #1553153 11/07/10 06:13 PM
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They are using the same photo for PHA 2 and 3 ivory keys.

Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
kishonti #1553299 11/07/10 09:59 PM
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Originally Posted by kishonti
They are using the same photo for PHA 2 and 3 ivory keys.

The difference is an extra contact in the rubber switch thingie.

I find it rather distressing to look at these actions, it seems like they exist on the very edge of snapping or wearing out. And now I'm aware that the pivot point is too close.

Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
dewster #1553440 11/08/10 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by kishonti
They are using the same photo for PHA 2 and 3 ivory keys.

The difference is an extra contact in the rubber switch thingie.

I find it rather distressing to look at these actions, it seems like they exist on the very edge of snapping or wearing out. And now I'm aware that the pivot point is too close.


I find the action is pretty robust and built like a brick. I had a good look at mine when i dissected my piano. The pivot point is underneath the key but the way the levers are arranged the movement is amplified a lot by the time the hammer goes up. The PHAIII looks identical to the PHAII.

You can also see the escapement action which is actually a very simple mechanical action, its the two reddish brown nubs in the top right of the key, it activated by a plastic nub as the lever goes past, pushing the rubber escapement up, the resistance as this happens gives the key the escapement feel.

Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
bobbo #1553453 11/08/10 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bobbo

I find the action is pretty robust and built like a brick. I had a good look at mine when i dissected my piano. The pivot point is underneath the key but the way the levers are arranged the movement is amplified a lot by the time the hammer goes up. The PHAIII looks identical to the PHAII.


Yes I have seen this in reality for Yamaha and Kawai and for others in images.

So far I can see the major brands share the same basic design.
The travel height of the hammer is about 3 times the travel way of the key. That means the mass inertia of the key is approximately 3 times the weight force.

This relation is 6 for a (very) grand piano.
I personally came to the conclusion, there are no major differences between brands in the basic design.

The force at the rear end of the key is 400%, this is 200% for a (very) grand piano.

The differences are in quality, precision, bounce back, damping, friction, escapement and sensors (2 versus 3, sensor distance and height) and velocity curves but not in the very basic mechanical and geometrical parameters.


Last edited by hpeterh; 11/08/10 06:01 AM.

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Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
hpeterh #1553462 11/08/10 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by hpeterh
The differences are in quality, precision, bounce back, damping, friction, escapement and sensors (2 versus 3, sensor distance and height) and velocity curves but not in the very basic mechanical and geometrical parameters.



Are you saying that the Kawai RM3 keyboard does not have substantially longer, all-wooden keys that more closely emulate a grand piano?

Re: PHA III Ivory Feel vs Ivory Feel-S
DazedAndConfused #1553464 11/08/10 07:11 AM
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The Kawai more closely emulates the feel of a comparable acoustic piano with wooden keys. (A big grand is not comparable)
Because the key has more mass inertia than a hollow plastic key, the inertia/weight ratio might be a little bit better. But that is not a factor of 2 and I believe less than 1.5, because also the wooden corpus is very light. (Unfortunately I forgot to scale it, before I reassembled my piano ;-)

Imagine an concert pianist at a CA111. There have been reports that concertpianists where fooled by it. Now from this I conclude, they did not use the pedal....

But do you think a concert pianist yould be fooled by a Kawai RM3 built into the housing of a Kawai Shigeru EX ??? ;-)

Last edited by hpeterh; 11/08/10 07:39 AM.

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