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Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: dolce sfogato] #1548791
11/01/10 08:47 PM
11/01/10 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
Busoni's is a concerttranscription, one that even outdoes the original in popularity
It's understandable that people here are a bit piano-centric, but I think that's going a bit far. Outdoes the original in popularity amongst pianists perhaps...


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Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: Mati] #1548793
11/01/10 08:48 PM
11/01/10 08:48 PM
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yeah, you're here amongst that kind of species, yes!


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: Mati] #1548802
11/01/10 09:00 PM
11/01/10 09:00 PM
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oh, forgot to mention that the global concertpractice learns that the Bach-Busoni Chaconne has more stageings than the d-minor violin partita, and that in my honest opinion the overpowering effect of this masterpiece can very well be done by 10 fingers on a keyboard, and with 2 feet at that!


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: Mati] #1548808
11/01/10 09:11 PM
11/01/10 09:11 PM
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"The recording is taken from a Piano Roll (grooves on a sheet of paper that get fed into a special piano) that he recorded. The recording that you hear was then made many years after he died - which is why it is such high quality. But it is still, technically, him playing it. "

Busoni

and

Rubinstein .

and actually I think I like the Brahms the best. It is simply gorgeous.

part 1 (Anatol Ugorski)

part 2

Last edited by apple*; 11/01/10 09:16 PM.

accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: Mati] #1548870
11/01/10 10:48 PM
11/01/10 10:48 PM
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Both transcriptions loose Bach, IMHO, almost completely.
I love this piece, but having listened to it all my life on the violin, I cannot chase its searing beauty from my ears as it gets morphed from its glorious strings origin to a percussive transcriptional assault.
Sorry Busoni..

Listen to Leonid Kagan making the strings resonate with your own heart molecules. Up there with Nathan Milstein. MOst recently I heard a gorgeous rendition by Arnold Steinhardt from the Guareneri quartet.

The Chaconne is for strings what the Goldberg variations are for piano. Inimitable..





Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: Andromaque] #1548928
11/02/10 12:07 AM
11/02/10 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Andromaque
Both transcriptions loose Bach, IMHO, almost completely.
I love this piece, but having listened to it all my life on the violin, I cannot chase its searing beauty from my ears as it gets morphed from its glorious strings origin to a percussive transcriptional assault.
Sorry Busoni..

Something about Andromaque being boiled in oil... after lunch of course, with apologies to W. S. Gilbert. laugh

Well your point is well taken, and thanks for the YT links. No doubt you are correct, the violin original has a searing intensity and focus which in some sense transcends any attempt at transcription, sort of like arranging the Beethoven 9th for a thousand kazoos.

But yet... Bach has to be unique in mainstream classical composers in that his music always seems to survive transcription, and in the right arranger, Bach will not only thrive, but glisten in its new format! I find this amazing.

Busoni's arrangement -from a pianistic standpoint- is utterly magisterial, and is very special for me. But a lot of hacks got into the act, and Siloti, whom I generally admire, made some really vulgar arrangements of Bach for the 'modern' piano.

Remember too, that Bach transcribed Vivaldi -we all love the 4 harpsichord concerto (better than the original I might venture?)- and also the A minor concerto for organ. That one has been transcribed for piano a number of times, none the better.


Jason
Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: Mati] #1548971
11/02/10 01:23 AM
11/02/10 01:23 AM
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English brutality!!! I am hoping the Pacific Northwest will have salutary effects on your soul..

I did not blast all of Busoni's valiant efforts, just the Chaconne.

Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: Andromaque] #1549205
11/02/10 10:27 AM
11/02/10 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Andromaque
English brutality!!! I am hoping the Pacific Northwest will have salutary effects on your soul..

What, English brutality Mikado style? (Or maybe the result of watching the first episode in the final season of 'The Tudors'?)

Actually I basically agreed with you!


Jason
Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: Mati] #1549206
11/02/10 10:30 AM
11/02/10 10:30 AM
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Busoni to me is a bit brutal. Was Busoni British? I guess Italian.

i love Lizst's transcriptions, perhaps because they fit my hands and fingering sensibility better.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: apple*] #1549296
11/02/10 01:15 PM
11/02/10 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by apple*
Busoni to me is a bit brutal. Was Busoni British? I guess Italian.



No but argerichfan is a brit, which you might have guessed from his oil boiling suggestion..


Jason
I never warmed up to G & S, although punishment by oil immersion could easily sway me..
And I did watch the Tudors.. That was quite a scene..



Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: argerichfan] #1549324
11/02/10 01:58 PM
11/02/10 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
But a lot of hacks got into the act, and Siloti, whom I generally admire, made some really vulgar arrangements of Bach for the 'modern' piano.
Which Siloti transcriptions do you dislike?

I've heard quite a few and have music to almost all of them and think they're excellent. His transcription of the Chaconne is similar to Busoni's but with somewhat less notes, less doublings, and somewhat simpler. Something like Busoni minus what some(not saying I fall in this category) find as somewhat bombastic or over Romaticized writing. Siloti's transcription of the e minor Prelude from the WTC is extremely popular in recitals and was a favorite encore of Gilels.

A few Siloti transcriptions:

Gilels plays Bach-Siloti Prelude in b minor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu06WnXlPCY

Bach-Siloti: Choral Prelude in e minor(I would rate this perhaps the most beautiful Bach transcription at this technical level of difficulty):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6UzRVSgyA4

BAch-Siloti:Organ Prelude in g minor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_0Z...5DA8CF1292A97&index=0&playnext=1

Bach-Siloti:Prelude in D from Cantata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=job4kwTt6IM

Bach-Siloti:Chaconne
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuQqvhwaD4w&feature=related

Bach-Siloti:Toccata and Fugue in d minor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O74PxbYKHTE

Rachmaninov plays Saint Saens-Siloti:The Swan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7EMA0TJp2Q

Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/02/10 06:10 PM.
Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: pianoloverus] #1549428
11/02/10 03:54 PM
11/02/10 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by argerichfan
But a lot of hacks got into the act, and Siloti, whom I generally admire, made some really vulgar arrangements of Bach for the 'modern' piano.
Which Siloti transcriptions do you dislike?

Well I was thinking of Soloti's 'concert arrangement' of the Bach Fantasy in C minor BWV 906. It's a delightful piece (de Larrocha made a wonderful recording) which stands so perfectly on its own, yet Siloti blissfully fills it out with a lot of octaves and other double notes, presumably to make it more effective on a modern piano.


Jason
Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: argerichfan] #1549455
11/02/10 04:31 PM
11/02/10 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by argerichfan
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by argerichfan
But a lot of hacks got into the act, and Siloti, whom I generally admire, made some really vulgar arrangements of Bach for the 'modern' piano.
Which Siloti transcriptions do you dislike?

Well I was thinking of Soloti's 'concert arrangement' of the Bach Fantasy in C minor BWV 906. It's a delightful piece (de Larrocha made a wonderful recording) which stands so perfectly on its own, yet Siloti blissfully fills it out with a lot of octaves and other double notes, presumably to make it more effective on a modern piano.
So what do you think of some of the Siloti transcriptions I posted?

Since the "transcription" you mentioned is of a non organ keyboard work, I would call it more of an "edition". Siloti made a lot of these very heavily edited(meaning some note adding/changing) pieces for many different composers. They'd rarely be played with his additions today but give good insight into the pianistic thinking of Siloti's time. Interestingly enough, most of his what I would call his transcriptions are simpler and have less notes than those by Busoni. His transcription of The Swan is far simpler and to my mind better than the very elaborate Godowsky version.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 11/02/10 04:44 PM.
Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: Mati] #1549508
11/02/10 05:44 PM
11/02/10 05:44 PM
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Siloti is no match for Busoni, just a epigone(-ish)


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: pianoloverus] #1549512
11/02/10 05:49 PM
11/02/10 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus

Bach-Siloti: Choral Prelude in e minor(I would rate this perhaps the most beautiful Bach transcription at this technical level of difficulty):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu06WnXlPCY

Sounds interesting but this is the wrong link!

-J

Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: beet31425] #1549526
11/02/10 06:18 PM
11/02/10 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by beet31425
Originally Posted by pianoloverus

Bach-Siloti: Choral Prelude in e minor(I would rate this perhaps the most beautiful Bach transcription at this technical level of difficulty):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu06WnXlPCY

Sounds interesting but this is the wrong link!

-J
Thanks. I changed the link.
If you like the piece you can get the score here:
http://www.classicscore.hut2.ru/S.html

It's number 6039 about two thirds of the way down the page. Most of his other transcriptions/editions are on the same page.

Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: dolce sfogato] #1549534
11/02/10 06:29 PM
11/02/10 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
Siloti is no match for Busoni, just a epigone(-ish)
I don't think anyone thinks Siloti is a match for Busoni, but that's not the point. His transcriptions are still very good and he was a great pianist, so I think harsh criticism seems silly and negative.

Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: Mati] #1549545
11/02/10 06:41 PM
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yeah? oh, well, enjoy the marvellous world of Siloti, let me revel in Busoni's.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: pianoloverus] #1549589
11/02/10 07:52 PM
11/02/10 07:52 PM
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Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by argerichfan
But a lot of hacks got into the act, and Siloti, whom I generally admire, made some really vulgar arrangements of Bach for the 'modern' piano.
Which Siloti transcriptions do you dislike?

I've heard quite a few and have music to almost all of them and think they're excellent. His transcription of the Chaconne is similar to Busoni's but with somewhat less notes, less doublings, and somewhat simpler. Something like Busoni minus what some(not saying I fall in this category) find as somewhat bombastic or over Romaticized writing. Siloti's transcription of the e minor Prelude from the WTC is extremely popular in recitals and was a favorite encore of Gilels.

A few Siloti transcriptions:

Gilels plays Bach-Siloti Prelude in b minor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu06WnXlPCY

Bach-Siloti: Choral Prelude in e minor(I would rate this perhaps the most beautiful Bach transcription at this technical level of difficulty):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6UzRVSgyA4

BAch-Siloti:Organ Prelude in g minor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_0Z...5DA8CF1292A97&index=0&playnext=1

Bach-Siloti:Prelude in D from Cantata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=job4kwTt6IM

Bach-Siloti:Chaconne
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuQqvhwaD4w&feature=related

Bach-Siloti:Toccata and Fugue in d minor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O74PxbYKHTE

Rachmaninov plays Saint Saens-Siloti:The Swan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7EMA0TJp2Q


I happen to adore the bminor prelude and at one time had a live recording with Gilels.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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Re: Bach Chaconne (BWV1004 in d minor) piano transcriptions [Re: stores] #1549596
11/02/10 08:01 PM
11/02/10 08:01 PM
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who doesn't like that one, it just doesn't compare to the Chaconne, it really doesn't, and Busoni maybe copied
Liszt, but he outdid him, yes he did, and Siloti, well, good try, Kempff, Wilhelm that is for the younger viewers, also did a good try, and so many others, but for me, as to Bach transcriptions: 'Feruccio Busoni da Empoli' is the man! Only Rachmaninoff could be mentioned in this respect, although he put too much of himself in the partita, but who cares...


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
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