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theJourney, a question for you.
Why are your questions so assumptive? Are you really interested in an answer? Your question seems to be only an opportunity to again review all the big issues you see with Kawai DPs like "polyphony problems and notes falling out in a disruptive fashion", "layering two dfferent piano sound with every available effect turned on to obtain an acceptable(??) piano tone"... You know that this is not the intention of the layered sounds!
What kind of calculation is that: 192/2/22?? Do you have more insight into the sound design of Kawai CA models than any other participant of this honorable forum?
BTW I can answer your question, because, as you know, I
m a "new age church song player" who uses lots of pedal. No, there are absolutely no polyphony issues detectable even with layered piano sounds.
Hope that helps (for whatever purpose).
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
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theJourney, a question for you.
Why are your questions so assumptive? Are you really interested in an answer? Your question seems to be only an opportunity to again review all the big issues you see with Kawai DPs like "polyphony problems and notes falling out in a disruptive fashion", "layering two dfferent piano sound with every available effect turned on to obtain an acceptable(??) piano tone"... You know that this is not the intention of the layered sounds!
What kind of calculation is that: 192/2/22?? Do you have more insight into the sound design of Kawai CA models than any other participant of this honorable forum?
BTW I can answer your question, because, as you know, I
m a "new age church song player" who uses lots of pedal. No, there are absolutely no polyphony issues detectable even with layered piano sounds.
Hope that helps (for whatever purpose).
It would be helpful if you could bring yourself to stick to the subject matter of the forum instead of posting repeatedly personal attacks or comments about other posters. You were the one who brought up this issue of polyphony in another thread during the past 24 hours. Well, as polyphony is concerned, 96 voice polyphony is not necessarily always sufficient. It all depends on how the manufacturer count the voices:
Normally the pianos are stereo, so 96 voices mean 96 mono voices, that's a total of 48 stereo voices. Then there are effects: Pedal down resonances and string resonances, these also eat up some of the voices, but I don't know for sure how many.
Furthermore if you like to create layered sounds then using two stereo pianos you are left with only 24 notes (without any resonance effects).
The CA63 has 192 voices polyphony, and I'm sure they will be eaten up by specific playing styles.
Therefore DPs have specific algorithms to drop those notes first that are not really recognized by the player. That might be the reason why the low very long decay note during your test did sound even after pressing lots of other keys.
My post was based on the issue that you yourself described using numbers and concepts that you yourself provided. Furthermore, my question was addressed to TADutchman, not to you. The more that you post in this emotional, biased and disruptive fashion the more that it would seem that your original name here of kawaien is the same as one of the officials from Kawai Germany website, not some church hymn playing customer...However, for me it doesn't matter who you are. What matters for me is that we get clarity on how much effective polyphony remains when using the presets described in this thread and if that is sufficient for practising and playing romantic and impressionistic music.
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My post was based on the issue that you yourself described using numbers and concepts that you yourself provided.
That's fine, but why then those assumptive remarks:
Those receiving first deliveries of the CA63 complained about polyphony problems and notes falling out in a disruptive fashion.
When you are layering two different piano sounds with every available effect turned on to obtain an acceptable piano tone,...
?
Furthermore, my question was addressed to TADutchman, not to you.
This is an official forum, if you want to address something only to one specific member of the forum it might be more appropriate to send a PM...
The more that you post in this emotional, biased and disruptive fashion the more that it would seem that your original name here of kawaien is the same as one of the officials from Kawai Germany website,
Oh, I see. You think officials from Kawai Germany are all people that are emotional, biased and disruptive. Interesting perception... BTW you should know I'm not in any relationship with Kawai, see my other posts...
However, for me it doesn't matter who you are. What matters for me is that we get clarity on how much effective polyphony remains when using the presets described in this thread and if that is sufficient for practising and playing romantic and impressionistic music.
I thought I answered that question:
I can answer your question, because, as you know, I'm a "new age church song player" who uses lots of pedal. No, there are absolutely no polyphony issues detectable even with layered piano sounds.
I think it's obvious that I can't tell you how many effective notes are left by using layered sounds since I don't know how Kawai handles polyphony. And as you know this seems to be a company secret (as for any other DP brand). So, it's going on as always... I'm not posting personal attacks, because I fully respect you. What I don't like are posts and questions that look like they're coming from an advocate in a criminal court case during a cross examination: "Is it correct, that you stated that DP xy has polyphony issues? Did you also state that ...? No more questions, high court, Kawai is guilty of providing faulty keyboard to their customers, with inferior sounds....". And I'm vocal about that, you see?
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
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Please guys, I advice you to start two new OT threads:  1. Mucci bashing theJourney 2. theJourney bashing Mucci I guess there will be many spectators, so maybe youtube is an option!  This thread however is all about creativity, new ideas and sharing of CA93/CA63 custom settings in an uplifting spirit, okay? 
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
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Re your "?" on these two points:
originally Posted By: theJourney
Those receiving first deliveries of the CA63 complained about polyphony problems and notes falling out in a disruptive fashion.
Originally Posted By: theJourney
When you are layering two different piano sounds with every available effect turned on to obtain an acceptable piano tone,...
Both of these statements are summaries of fact from a number of posts on this forum. Regarding the rest of your latest post, unfortunately, just another long post to say "I know the question was not directed to me. But, I will type that I don't the answer while questioning the validity of posing it. I know nuhsink about how Kawai handles polyphony despite my earlier post claiming that I do know something.
Oh, I see. You think officials from Kawai Germany are all people that are emotional, biased and disruptive. Interesting perception... BTW you should know I'm not in any relationship with Kawai, see my other posts...
I have no idea what officials from Kawai Germany are like other than observing the fact that their organization shows itself to be rather incompetent as international distributors. I am sure that there are some great humans working there who also wished their organization was doing a better job. The point I was making however is that your posts are often emotional, biased, disruptive and off topic, even after having changed your name from kawaien to mucci. It would be better to stick to the subject matter and if you don't know the answer, show some restraint rather than derail the threads. At the end of the day attempts to try to avoid or censure or prevent factual discussions will backfire and work against your goals to promote the Kawai brand.
Last edited by theJourney; 10/27/10 03:10 AM.
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Hey, theJourney, we could go in circles forever... I won't answer your recent accusations, because I don't want to be an advocate of myself rather than just clarifying false pretenses you bring up with some of your biased posts. Layering is not to get an acceptable sound... the sound is already acceptable. It's to get further improvement and variety of sounds, in a quite unique way which is possible with the virtual technician built in the CAxx instruments. Similar efforts might also lead to better sounds of Roland or Yamaha DPs, but I've yet to see someone posting them. Sorry, TADutchman, for not following your recommendation, but I need to reply in the original thread rather than in an evacuated artificial bashing thread...
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
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Hey, theJourney, we could go in circles forever... I won't answer your recent accusations, because I don't want to be an advocate of myself rather than just clarifying false pretenses you bring up with some of your biased posts. Layering is not to get an acceptable sound... the sound is already acceptable. It's to get further improvement and variety of sounds, in a quite unique way which is possible with the virtual technician built in the CAxx instruments. Similar efforts might also lead to better sounds of Roland or Yamaha DPs, but I've yet to see someone posting them. Sorry, TADutchman, for not following your recommendation, but I need to reply in the original thread rather than in an evacuated artificial bashing thread... Presumably the layering does also result in an acceptable sound for those who are doing the layering. I will remind you that both you and TADutchman are on record here criticizing the "undoctored" Kawai sounds resulting in you connecting your CA63 to Pianoteq and TADutchman doing some surprising, unconventional layering that is only possible in the CA line not the new MPs. My reminding you of this is not an accusation, just a reminder of the facts that you have personally shared with us. Whether you call it acceptable, desired, unconventionally layered or whatever, the fact that Kawai owners feel compelled to enhance the onboard sound while Roland and Yamaha owners do not find the onboard sound unacceptable is not the question. The question is still hanging unanswered in the air: what is the effective polyphony remaining after layering two piano sounds in stereo with all of the various effects enabled? Perhaps James could help us out here? Certainly it cannot be considered a trade secret to specify the performance of the built-in features of the CA93; unless of course the actual performance is poor and Kawai does not wish for these facts to be revealed. What exactly was the issue addressed by the firmware update? Fixing the polyphony or masking the lack of polyphony? The Kawai claims to have one of the highest polyphony on the market. Is this an empty or deceptive claim?
Last edited by theJourney; 10/27/10 04:38 AM.
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theJourney, your post is just ridiculous. Whether you call it acceptable, desired, unconventionally layered or whatever, the fact that Kawai owners feel compelled to enhance the onboard sound while Roland and Yamaha owners do not find the onboard sound unacceptable is not the question It's exactly about words. And about the accusation of us finding the sound unacceptable. Don't you hear me? Don't you hear me? (I intentionally said this twice) It's acceptable but it can be further improved! I don't like the Yamaha sound better, I even don't like the Roland sound better, although it has reached some impressive technical level! You understand me? It's getting boring, but to repeat it once again: I already answered your question: I can answer your question, because, as you know, I'm a "new age church song player" who uses lots of pedal. No, there are absolutely no polyphony issues detectable even with layered piano sounds. You won't get an answer to your "real polyphony" question from any DP company, so stop your repeated weak bashing attempts by implying untruthful notions to Kawai.
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
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Sorry, but you did not answer any of my questions.
My question was regarding Romantic and Impressionistic music from the core repertoire, not "new age church songs".
Actually other manufacturers including Yamaha and Korg do and have given effective polyphony information.
I don't believe that it would be in the interest of Kawai to be secretive about this.
Unless there are reasons for not wanting to discuss it.
It is a fact that the only brand that I remember being discussed on this forum where the lack of polyphony on a modern dp was an issue was with Kawai.
If the issue has been resolved it would certainly be in their interest to promote this fact rather than to avoid the question. Wouldn't you agree?
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Now it's getting really personal and I'm stopping discussion right now.
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
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Now it's getting really personal and I'm stopping discussion right now.
Let's give the floor to those with the knowledge, experience and will to address the questions.
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TADutchman, a question for you.
When you are layering two different piano sounds with every available effect turned on to obtain an acceptable piano tone, how much polyphony is left of the 196? I have no exact figures available but witnessed no audible practical limitations at all (as of firmware v1.07): if Kawai set-up their unique DP dual voice mode just like I do when developing virtual instruments, performing the adding of samples before doing the ‘expensive’ high-quality interpolation step, it could be almost without penalty on polyphony. I guess that at Kawai they are smart enough to have done something similar, as so far I could not find any significant difference in perceived polyphony between single and dual voice mode. I think I know what you mean with obtaining an acceptable piano tone: achieving an acceptable real dynamic acoustic piano tone for live playing at a reasonable price, not a 'me too' acceptable static sample playback digital piano tone. We're talking a whole different level here, near-AvantGrand or even beyond and at least more versatile: that’s exactly what I have been aiming to achieve using dual voice mode. Funny enough, I have an answer for you from a totally unexpected perspective: Recently, I've had several piano enthusiasts over at my home and I let them just play (no button pressing) my CA93 Steinway patch (variation) without giving any comments on forehand. At first they were quite sceptical (a CA111 like design may have helped here), but eventually, they were all amazed about the realism and acoustic impact and did not want to stop playing! For instance, I saw them diving into all kinds of complex pianissimo subtleties that even I had not heard before. Even more surprising to me was that some of them, owning an acoustic upright, were considering trading it in and buying a CA93 instead.
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
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Joined: Feb 2007
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TADutchman, a question for you.
When you are layering two different piano sounds with every available effect turned on to obtain an acceptable piano tone, how much polyphony is left of the 196? I have no exact figures available but witnessed no audible practical limitations at all (as of firmware v1.07): if Kawai set-up their unique DP dual voice mode just like I do when developing virtual instruments, performing the adding of samples before doing the ‘expensive’ high-quality interpolation step, it could be almost without penalty on polyphony. I guess that at Kawai they are smart enough to have done something similar, as so far I could not find any significant difference in perceived polyphony between single and dual voice mode. I think I know what you mean with obtaining an acceptable piano tone: achieving an acceptable real dynamic acoustic piano tone for live playing at a reasonable price, not a 'me too' acceptable static sample playback digital piano tone. We're talking a whole different level here, near-AvantGrand or even beyond and at least more versatile: that’s exactly what I have been aiming to achieve using dual voice mode. Funny enough, I have an answer for you from a totally unexpected perspective: Recently, I've had several piano enthusiasts over at my home and I let them just play (no button pressing) my CA93 Steinway patch (variation) without giving any comments on forehand. At first they were quite sceptical (a CA111 like design may have helped here), but eventually, they were all amazed about the realism and acoustic impact and did not want to stop playing! For instance, I saw them diving into all kinds of complex pianissimo subtleties that even I had not heard before. Even more surprising to me was that some of them, owning an acoustic upright, were considering trading it in and buying a CA93 instead. Great story!
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You're welcome, the Journey. Recently, I've had several piano enthusiasts over at my home and I let them just play (no button pressing) my CA93 Steinway patch (variation)... This is my current CA93 Steinway patch (people may prefer to play without reverb, just live acoustics; for reverb on/off you need to press a button):  STEINWAY GRAND DEVOTION R2.1 - CA93 variation Dual Voice: Mellow Grand, volume 9 + Finger Nylon Gt, volume 1 1 Basic Settings 1 - 3 Tone control: low +5, mid -1, high 0 2 Virtual Technician 2 - 1 Voicing: mellow 1 2 - 2 Damper resonance: 10 2 - 3 String resonance: 10 2 - 4 Key off effect: 8 2 - 5 Touch: light 2 - 8 Stretch tuning: Wide 3 Key Settings 3 - 3 Layer octave: -1 3 - 4 Layer dynamics: 10 Reverb: Hall 2 / Off Effect: Delay 2, time 1, depth 5 / Off
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
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This one reads very promising. I will chrck it tomorrow evening! Excellent, mucci: I would like to know what Voicing you prefer for the Blended Concert Grandeur patch after checking. 
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
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Hi TADutchman,
I tested the Blended Concert Grandeur this morning: Compared to my standard single Concert Grand patch (not layered) its only a very subtle difference in sound, it's somewhat richer sounding, but that's mainly because of the activated delay2 effect. I could achieve a very similar somewhat fuller sound also with using the same effect on my single Concert Grand patch.
So, my favourite layer sound (because it's really a completely new sound experience) remains the Steinway patch!
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
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@mucci: you were clearly expecting another revolution, while this patch is more of an evolutionary nature. By the way, did you try different voicings (normal, mellow1, mellow2) and full keyboard and dynamic range (ppp -> fff blending)? Nevertheless, I will see what I can do or maybe already have done with any of the other recent patches. Sometimes small updates with slightly altered settings can also do the trick, changing the rating from fairly good -> fantastic! @Everybody: that's why feedback of you guys on all published dual voice piano patches is essential. 
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
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Hi all, I will soon receive my CA63. I already tried some of the proposed settings at the dealer and was impressed. In order to make those settings easier to get, I regrouped some of them in a google spreadsheet settings summary. I let it be editable by anyone so fell free to complete/correct/update it. I know of the pdf from pinpon but it is out of date and cannot be edited collaboratively. pdf version of the table And big thanks to TADutchman for its work.
Last edited by Stilgar; 10/29/10 05:25 AM.
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Wow, this all reads like getting to be a big patch user community. I would even compare this tweakability with some products in the gadget area where products that are good and can be further improved in either functionality or quality usually gain lots of supporters. This often leads to a big succes story of the product.
Anyway, folks, thanks for your contribution, especially to TADutchman!
<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
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I will soon receive my CA63. I already tried some of the proposed settings at the dealer and was impressed. In order to make those settings easier to get, I regrouped some of them in a google spreadsheet Welcome to the club, Stilgar! Would you please add a direct link to this CA93/CA63 custom settings thread in your spreadsheet and pdf-file and mention that all dual voice settings of TADutchman are free for non-commercial use?
K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
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