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Strange noise after rendering #1544336
10/27/10 12:08 AM
10/27/10 12:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 3
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dave91z Offline OP
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dave91z  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 3
Hello all,

I'm new to VSTs and digital pianos, but I have figured out most things on my own so far. I recently purchased Galaxy's Vintage D and absolutely love it. A couple days ago, I figured out how to use it with Sony's Acid Music Studio 7, which has been installed on my computer for some time now. I did a short test recording, and playing the midi back in Acid, it sounded perfect. But after rendering as an MP3 and playing back, I notice a very harsh "thwang" sound in the recording. To me it sounded like damper or string noises that got amplified with reverb or something. I changed the settings in Vintage D from "Concert Grand" preset to "Basic Grand" and turned off all the extra options like pedal noise, damper, string noise, etc. In Acid, the playback sounded perfect again, but after rendering, the "thwang" sound was still present. Is this most likely a problem with Acid? Can somebody recommend a free program that will let me render a midi through a VST so I can do some more tests? Thanks for your help. Here are the output files as well as the midi:

"Concert Grand" preset: http://www.box.net/shared/3ajcizxje9
"Basic Grand" preset (extra effects off): http://www.box.net/shared/2ijdq6v5rq
MIDI: http://www.box.net/shared/hshx7vy3xb

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Re: Strange noise after rendering [Re: dave91z] #1544365
10/27/10 01:13 AM
10/27/10 01:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,842
Redondo Beach, California
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ChrisA Offline
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ChrisA  Offline
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Ifthe problem only shows up in MP3 files I suspect it is a compression artifact. Many people dislike the MP3 format because it can cause things like this. Somethings to try (1) change the mp3 setting to use a higher bit rate. try 320bps (2) use another file format. "wav" would be a good one as also would be any lossless compressed format like FLAC.

Edit: I wrote the above without listening carefully. Now with headphone I hear a weird artifact. I think MP3 is designed to encode acoustic instruments and I notice most of the problems I hear are in electronic music. Mostly this kind of music is so noisy with so many layers of sound the problems are masked but yours is ideal for showing off the defect. The only way to know is to listen to the uncompressed version and compare.

Last edited by ChrisA; 10/27/10 01:22 AM.
Re: Strange noise after rendering [Re: dave91z] #1544669
10/27/10 11:33 AM
10/27/10 11:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 824
Germany
hpeterh Offline
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hpeterh  Offline
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Cantabile can render to Wav.
I dont know if the free version can, if not you could use the trial version.
Reaper can render many formats. There is a 30 day trial version and its very affordable DAW, costs less than Cantabile.

I rendered you MIDI with Reaper:
http://hphsite.de/temp/test.mp3

I did however use my own adjustment.
Edit:
Dont know exactly how I made it, its the last setting that was saved when closing reaper, probably a copy of these settings that are under "Improvisation #1" on the Galaxy website.

I find the preconfigured settings in Galaxy allmost all need modification, these are made "using a hot needle" as we say here. For example it is unlogical to disable halfpedal and repedalling and softpedal for the setting "concert grand" ;-)

I had all effects enabled.

I have also the latest Kontakt player installed and the latest Vintage D updates.
There where some bugs removed in the meantime. What I heared in your recording sounds like a stringresonance problem. So far I understood, you switched it off, but there might be a bug that triggered it nevertheless.

Peter


Last edited by hpeterh; 10/27/10 12:13 PM.

1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6

Re: Strange noise after rendering [Re: dave91z] #1544714
10/27/10 12:21 PM
10/27/10 12:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 483
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Rimmer Offline
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Rimmer  Offline
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Posts: 483
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Originally Posted by dave91z
but after rendering, the "thwang" sound was still present. Is this most likely a problem with Acid? Can somebody recommend a free program that will let me render a midi through a VST so I can do some more tests? Thanks for your help. Here are the output files as well as the midi:

"Concert Grand" preset: http://www.box.net/shared/3ajcizxje9
"Basic Grand" preset (extra effects off): http://www.box.net/shared/2ijdq6v5rq
MIDI: http://www.box.net/shared/hshx7vy3xb


I'd be interested if you'd render it out as an interleaved stereo wave file from Acid, listen to it let us know if it sounds normal.

Convert it afterwards using a LAME Mp3 codec (don't use Acid at this experimental stage) then listen to it and let us know how it sounds. Use at least 192k with the Mp3 codec and maybe try an AAC encoder (iTunes if you have nothing else) and report back.

Thx.. Rimmer

Last edited by Rimmer; 10/27/10 12:24 PM.
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Re: Strange noise after rendering [Re: Rimmer] #1544720
10/27/10 12:34 PM
10/27/10 12:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 824
Germany
hpeterh Offline
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hpeterh  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 824
Germany
Yes I used the lame codec too. Reaper doesnt have a own mp3 codec, it uses the lame codec, this must be manually installed.

Peter


1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6

Re: Strange noise after rendering [Re: hpeterh] #1544748
10/27/10 01:15 PM
10/27/10 01:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,842
Redondo Beach, California
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ChrisA Offline
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ChrisA  Offline
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Originally Posted by hpeterh
.. What I heared in your recording sounds like a stringresonance problem. So far I understood, you switched it off, but there might be a bug that triggered it nevertheless.


If the sound is not present in the live play and only in the recording, I don't think it can be string resonance. The sound must be introduced by the recording and compressing.

My guess is that there is some discontinuity in the digital output from his virtual instrument. Something like a "bad edit" you can make in some audio editors where the cut is not made on a zero crossing. Or maybe some other "imposable to happen in nature" kind of discontinuity and MP3 is just poor at encoding this. Try the newer mp4/aac format (it's what is used by iTunes.)


Re: Strange noise after rendering [Re: dave91z] #1544751
10/27/10 01:19 PM
10/27/10 01:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 106
Raleigh/Durham NC
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7notemode Offline
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7notemode  Offline
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Posts: 106
Raleigh/Durham NC
Dave91z,
There is a well known bug with Kontakt 4 and Vin D. Galaxy has a downloadable new patch to work around it, but my understanding is that it will not be completely fixed until Kontakt 4 is updated to fix the bug in their host program. I can't use Vin D right now for the same reason. :-/

Re: Strange noise after rendering [Re: dave91z] #1544761
10/27/10 01:32 PM
10/27/10 01:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 824
Germany
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member
hpeterh  Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 824
Germany
@ChrisA
Do you think my rendering above has the same problem?
To me it sounded fine. I used Vintage D update 1.1.1 which is the latest.

I used 48000 sample rate, so resampling doesnt happen and maximum quality which is 320 kbps.
In Vintage I had string resonance set to -20 dB, this is the default.

I mentioned overtones resonance because it sounded like this and because I know about a former bug with this. If the recording is worse than the source then of course the encoder must have amplified it.

Peter

Ok, all files:
http://hphsite.de/temp/test.mp3

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Last edited by hpeterh; 10/27/10 03:01 PM.

1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6

Re: Strange noise after rendering [Re: dave91z] #1544893
10/27/10 05:15 PM
10/27/10 05:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 3
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dave91z Offline OP
Junior Member
dave91z  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 3
Thank you all for your helpful responses - I really appreciate them. After some more experimentation, this is what I got:

I downloaded and installed the free demo of Reaper. But even in Reaper playback, the weird sound was still very audible. After that, I figured it wasn't a problem with Acid.

Fearing I was going insane, I opened up Acid again and loaded up Vintage and my test MIDI and sure enough - the sound was NOT there in Acid playback. So very strange...

So I spent a good amount of time tweaking everything around with Vintage D in Reaper and found the unpleasant sound related to the Resonances knob. With everything else turned off (no reverb or extra effects) but Resonances at 100% the thwang sound was painfully loud. However, turning Resonances to 0% the weird sound disappeared. I found that I could set Resonances to about 25% before I started hearing the noise again.

Something else that's interesting - I did a test in Acid using the exact settings Peter used in the screenshots above. The rendered MP3 sounds the same as the playback in Acid, but neither sound anything close to what Peter posted:
http://www.box.net/shared/7d8zabd8f7

Is this true for anyone else? I understand from your posts that there is a bug with a Vintage D update and Kontakt 4. Hopefully this is the problem, and it is not just specific to me. I hope they fix this soon - it's really annoying.

Re: Strange noise after rendering [Re: dave91z] #1544908
10/27/10 05:36 PM
10/27/10 05:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 824
Germany
hpeterh Offline
500 Post Club Member
hpeterh  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 824
Germany
Hello Dave,

I hear a little bit brighter sound and a lot more pedal noises.

After I sended some problem reports to galaxy I was invited to participate in the beta tests and I happily did so.

Therefore I know that the pedal noises levels and MIDI values where changed on user request, and other changes where made to sound and reverb levels and their functional behavior.

The latest Update is Vintage D 1.1.1 and I used this. It was released at the last weekend.
I use the latest Kontakt player.
So if not already done, install these. The pianos are small downloads, because only the scripts are updated. The player is a larger download.
You find the updates in NI Service center.

It is at this time not possible to transfer the settings. The settings are embedded in the scripts. So if you update the pianos (these are scripts) you must transfer the settings by hand, if you have customized instruments. This is a conceptional weakness of Kontaktplayer and can not be avoided currently. You can of course keep the older Instruments, but if you use them, then you use the old scripts. (The scripts are invisible to the user and encrypted)

BTW, there are indeed other problems, 7Notemode -whose playing I admire- mentioned it. But I think these are other and more subtile and special problems. These will be adressed in a later major update that will require a new conception and rewrite for the scripts.

I must now go to bed will not answer for the next hours ;-)

Best,

Peter

Last edited by hpeterh; 10/27/10 05:53 PM.

1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
acer aspire m3300 AMD Phenom II X6


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