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Re: James Horner's plagiarism [Re: Johnny-Boy] #1544345
10/27/10 12:23 AM
10/27/10 12:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,541
UK
Nikolas Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Nikolas  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,541
UK
Originally Posted by Johnny-Boy
Originally Posted by Nikolas
We need to remember that when Red Heat was released, Prokofiev's music was not yet in public domain! wink Not even in the US I believe! So it's not just a matter of ripping of material. Especially in the mentioned case, it's clear as crystal that he copy pasted the score and changed a little bit the orchestration!


Not necessarily Nikolas. For all we know, Horner has a mechanical license to use Prokofiev's music in this manner.

John smile
This is what I can't prove: When I first saw the film, I already knew of Prokofiev's cantata (had found a Melodvia record for sale and loving Prokofiev, I bought the obscure work). There was NO mention of Prokofiev's name in the first release of the film. Now, of course, DVDs and youtube vids have the reference, but back then there wasn't any!

And of course this is direct copying not "just" plagiarism: http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/red_heat.html

For the purpose of the discussion with gmonks: I largely agree. If you want to be clear you are original, use new techniques!

On the subject of unintentional copyright infrigment, here's a few links to enjoy my own fault:
"My" work: www.nikolas-sideris.com/ads/dragon_orchestral_epic.mp3
and here's John Powells score for Shrek 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzStDHlZDyM (around 1:03).

I had absolutely no idea I was directly copying the theme, and rather closely the orchestration, but needless to say I pulled out of the contect (and I was winning...), and keep using the track to examplify what could've happened to anyone, without much effort...

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Re: James Horner's plagiarism [Re: gsmonks] #1544382
10/27/10 01:51 AM
10/27/10 01:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 661
PA
Johnny-Boy Offline
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Johnny-Boy  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 661
PA
"Secondly, there are simple tools to use to avoid copying the work of others. The first is to have a broad knowledge of music in general, which is what works for pop writers" - gsmonks

That would be quite a broad knowledge of music considering there's an estimated 40-50 million songs on iTunes, Limewire, etc... alone. Then add to that millions of other songs that aren't available for public listening (I have a couple hundred of those myself).

I agree that there are ways to lessen the chances of unintentionally copying someone else's work (though much more difficult with the limitations given to popular music). Also, one can never be sure that the melody buzzing through one's creative mind isn't a remnant from earlier listening days.

John smile


Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!
Re: James Horner's plagiarism [Re: Johnny-Boy] #1544396
10/27/10 02:29 AM
10/27/10 02:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 174
Hutchinson, Minnesota, United ...
Jared Hoeft Offline
Full Member
Jared Hoeft  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 174
Hutchinson, Minnesota, United ...
Why worry about it? If somebody honestly and accidently wrote something that sounded strikingly similar to something of mine, I would not flip out over it. We all just need to chill out a bit. Are there people out there who would use our hard work to their advantage? Yes, of course, so still keep a guard up, but give people the benefit of the doubt. As for melodies/harmonies... I want to come up with original material, but I also want it to please my ear. I don't have a thought-out tone system to lower the chances of accidental copying. I write what comes out of my brain.

Re: James Horner's plagiarism [Re: gsmonks] #1544406
10/27/10 02:53 AM
10/27/10 02:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 652
Saskatchewan, Canada
G
gsmonks Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
gsmonks  Offline OP
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G

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 652
Saskatchewan, Canada
Why worry about the theft of someone's intellectual property, Jared? Because it's their property. It belongs to them. If this wasn't the case, there'd be no element of criminality. If there was a Schumann famiily estate that still owned the rights to Schumann's music, Horner would be in deep doo-doo right now.

Regardless, this matter raises the question, Does Horner have the right to profit from music he plagiarised? I would say that he owes royalties on the music he appropriated.

Otherwise, what's to stop people from using classical music as is and stamping their own name on it?

Re: James Horner's plagiarism [Re: gsmonks] #1544485
10/27/10 06:25 AM
10/27/10 06:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 661
PA
Johnny-Boy Offline
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Johnny-Boy  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 661
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"If there was a Schumann famiily estate that still owned the rights to music, Horner would be in deep doo-doo right now" - gsmonks

Deep doo-doo? I doubt it. Do you really think 20th Century Fox and Horner's lawyers wouldn't obtain the nescessary licensing if needed?

John


Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!
Re: James Horner's plagiarism [Re: Johnny-Boy] #1544534
10/27/10 08:08 AM
10/27/10 08:08 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 652
Saskatchewan, Canada
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gsmonks Offline OP
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gsmonks  Offline OP
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G

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 652
Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted by Johnny-Boy
"If there was a Schumann famiily estate that still owned the rights to music, Horner would be in deep doo-doo right now" - gsmonks

Deep doo-doo? I doubt it. Do you really think 20th Century Fox and Horner's lawyers wouldn't obtain the nescessary licensing if needed?

John


Since he hasn't been challenged (so far), there's no way of knowing.

Re: James Horner's plagiarism [Re: gsmonks] #1544558
10/27/10 08:40 AM
10/27/10 08:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 661
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Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member
Johnny-Boy  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 661
PA
Originally Posted by gsmonks
Originally Posted by Johnny-Boy
"If there was a Schumann famiily estate that still owned the rights to music, Horner would be in deep doo-doo right now" - gsmonks

Deep doo-doo? I doubt it. Do you really think 20th Century Fox and Horner's lawyers wouldn't obtain the nescessary licensing if needed?

John


Since he hasn't been challenged (so far), there's no way of knowing.


I did find Schumann's music (including his 3rd Symphony) on several public domain lists.

As long as a composer works from a published copy with a copyright date old enough to qualify for public domain status (the original is), there would be no legal issues in making new arrangements.

However there may be newer arrangements still under copyright.


Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!
Re: James Horner's plagiarism [Re: Nikolas] #1544631
10/27/10 10:45 AM
10/27/10 10:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 661
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Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member
Johnny-Boy  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 661
PA
Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by Johnny-Boy
Originally Posted by Nikolas
We need to remember that when Red Heat was released, Prokofiev's music was not yet in public domain! wink Not even in the US I believe! So it's not just a matter of ripping of material. Especially in the mentioned case, it's clear as crystal that he copy pasted the score and changed a little bit the orchestration!


Not necessarily Nikolas. For all we know, Horner has a mechanical license to use Prokofiev's music in this manner.

John smile
This is what I can't prove: When I first saw the film, I already knew of Prokofiev's cantata (had found a Melodvia record for sale and loving Prokofiev, I bought the obscure work). There was NO mention of Prokofiev's name in the first release of the film. Now, of course, DVDs and youtube vids have the reference, but back then there wasn't any!

And of course this is direct copying not "just" plagiarism: http://www.filmtracks.com/titles/red_heat.html

For the purpose of the discussion with gmonks: I largely agree. If you want to be clear you are original, use new techniques!

On the subject of unintentional copyright infrigment, here's a few links to enjoy my own fault:
"My" work: www.nikolas-sideris.com/ads/dragon_orchestral_epic.mp3
and here's John Powells score for Shrek 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzStDHlZDyM (around 1:03).

I had absolutely no idea I was directly copying the theme, and rather closely the orchestration, but needless to say I pulled out of the contect (and I was winning...), and keep using the track to examplify what could've happened to anyone, without much effort...


Yes, I can see this unintentionally happening Nikolas. BTW, your orchestrated version sounds great. You can orchestrate any of my tracks anytime. laugh

Best, John smile


Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!
Re: James Horner's plagiarism [Re: gsmonks] #1544707
10/27/10 12:15 PM
10/27/10 12:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 174
Hutchinson, Minnesota, United ...
Jared Hoeft Offline
Full Member
Jared Hoeft  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 174
Hutchinson, Minnesota, United ...
Originally Posted by gsmonks
I would say that he owes royalties on the music he appropriated. Otherwise, what's to stop people from using classical music as is and stamping their own name on it?


I agree with you here. There has to be rules in place to protect this type of stuff. But I still think that relaxing a bit about intellectual property would do everybody some good. Of course, in an ideal world, nobody would copy music "on purpose." But of course intentional plagiarism does happen...

Re: James Horner's plagiarism [Re: Jared Hoeft] #1544743
10/27/10 01:10 PM
10/27/10 01:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 661
PA
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member
Johnny-Boy  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 661
PA
Originally Posted by Jared Hoeft
Originally Posted by gsmonks
I would say that he owes royalties on the music he appropriated. Otherwise, what's to stop people from using classical music as is and stamping their own name on it?


I agree with you here. There has to be rules in place to protect this type of stuff. But I still think that relaxing a bit about intellectual property would do everybody some good. Of course, in an ideal world, nobody would copy music "on purpose." But of course intentional plagiarism does happen...


There are laws regarding copyrights Jared. Since Jan, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years, after which the original becomes Public Domain. Prior to 1978, the protection of copyright was much shorter, though there was an option for renewal.

Schumann's music definitely fits into Public Domain. However, when applying for a copyright with a new arrangement of a public domain work, the author of the arrangement should be listed as an "arranger", and the original composer (if known) should be listed.

Also, when registering such work with a PRO (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC), the author of the arrangement should be listed as an "arranger", and the original composer (if known) as the writer.

In such a case, the arranger would be entitled to a 100% share of writer's royalties (also 100% share of publisher's royalties if he/she owns the publishing), while the public domain author would be listed at 0% share. Since Shumann's now residing in the Heavens, I don't think he'll mind.

John smile


Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!
Re: James Horner's plagiarism [Re: gsmonks] #1545362
10/28/10 11:26 AM
10/28/10 11:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 661
PA
Johnny-Boy Offline
500 Post Club Member
Johnny-Boy  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 661
PA
I just checked out Horner's tracks listed with ASCAP (public records): 1,175 track listings (and some of them with multiple cues). I'd love to receive one of his royalty checks. laugh

John smile


Stop analyzing; just compose the damn thing!
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