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Actions compared #1541163
10/22/10 04:40 PM
10/22/10 04:40 PM
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hpeterh Offline OP
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I made a comparison.
Shown are keys from pivot point to front.
All scaled to same size.

This is not very scientific and unfortunately not all have the black key. So the fallboard position can only be estimated.
However it can be seen that Kawai RM3 has the shortest Key lever arm and that the Kawai Upright is closer to the grand action than the Kawai RM3 action.

So the RM3 must be compared -if this criteria is used- to a rather simple and short Upright action and not to a Grand action. Even the comparison to a Kawai Upright or Seiler Upright would be a bad match.
I did the scaling by sense of proportion, it is not absolutely accurate. Eyeballs and brain must be used to view the images ;-)

It would be interesting to find Images that allow for accurate numeric classification.

Please note the images are handscaled and handdrawn and are meant to show the principle, but are not meant to be 100.0% accurate!

Ever asked yourself, why some people say, keyboard xyz is heavy and others say this same xyz is light?

[Linked Image]
Be aware, that it doesnt matter where the hammer is. This relationship is always true. It follows directly from geometry and principle of energy conservation. If you can prove this untrue, then you can build a perpetuum mobile and win the Nobel Price and buy a real Kawai or Steinway Grand ;-)

That said, if the playing is fast and the playing technique ballistic, then the dynamic forces are much stronger than the static forces. This rule above is still valid for this case, but other forces might become more important. So it is possible that even some skilled pianists are not aware about this basic relationship.


Edit: I added the 200% arrows and these are as accurate as I could do. Yamaha wins, Casio looses. It is however, only a small difference so go into the next musicstore and try out, if this matters to you
Kawai Grand
[Linked Image]
Kawai Upright
[Linked Image]
Kawai RM3
[Linked Image]
90 years experience in piano building are clearly visible.
This compares to a simple Upright action that was built 90 years ago. ;-)
Kawai RH3
[Linked Image]
Casio Tri Sensor
[Linked Image]

Fatar TP40W (NUMA Nero)
[Linked Image]

Fatar TP 100 LR (Numa Piano)
[Linked Image]
Roland PHAIII
[Linked Image]
I can see it, why their action is so noisy. Some damping material like bitumen or selfhardening foam would be required. This is built like a washing machine, so it must be dampened like this ;-)

Yamaha GH3 NW
[Linked Image]
Yamaha has -so far I know- the disadvantage, that the hammer cannot move away from the key. This seems to be better with Roland and best with Kawai, because the Kawai Key has more mass inertia.

BTW, just to correct another error of mine, I found out that the Yamaha NW action has a little bit more than wooden decorations, it has an element or core of solid wood inside.
It is not hollow inside. I can however not swear it, it is 2nd hand knowledge.
It is unclear to me if the Yamaha image is accurate, as it is a photoshopped advertising image.

If this image has some perspectivic distortion applied for more impressivity, then the actual key lever arm would be even longer.

It seems to me that the Yamaha GH3 is a little bit longer than the KawaiUpright and is the closest match to the KawaiGrand action, if key-lever length is the criteria.

If you know the Yamaha key, then you know that the pivot point is at the very leftmost end of the key, it stands a little bit over. So, if the image is accurate, then Yamaha clearly has the longest key. And it has this since 1996, when the GH action was created. They have escapement functionality for almost 10 years now and had proportional pedal 15 years ago. Technologically they always where ahead of the others.

@Kawai James: Thanks for the photorealistic image. Exchange done.

To the other repliers: Thanks for the interest. I find this criteria most interesting and important. So I used it. It is clear that there are other criterias, such as bouncing, noise, weight and last not least sound. This criteria also has the big advantage, that it is objectively and easily measurable and comparable. However it is an rather important geometric criteria, I think no piano expert would say something else.

Last edited by hpeterh; 10/28/10 01:54 PM.

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Re: Actions compared [Re: hpeterh] #1541172
10/22/10 04:53 PM
10/22/10 04:53 PM
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anotherscott Offline
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Originally Posted by hpeterh
it can be seen that Kawai RM3 has the shortest Key lever arm and that the Kawai Upright is closer to the grand action than the Kawai RM3 action.

So the RM3 must be compared to an Upright action.

It's an interesting observation about key length, though I'm not sure that I agree that "the RM3 must be compared to an Upright action" if that statements is based on key length alone, since the action of a grand and an upright differ in numerous ways, and I'm not sure that key length is even among the most significant (or if it's even a universal difference).

Regardless, as I said elsewhere in another context, if there were a portable DP with an action "only" as good as a high quality upright, I'd be very happy... though I realize that I'm likely forcing myself to compromise on the action because I only look at models that are really lightweight.

Re: Actions compared [Re: hpeterh] #1541192
10/22/10 05:17 PM
10/22/10 05:17 PM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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hpeterh, may I please ask you to reference this image of the real 'RM3 Grand' action, rather than the 3D render that you have linked to.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Actions compared [Re: hpeterh] #1541193
10/22/10 05:17 PM
10/22/10 05:17 PM
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You are looking at the wrong end unfortunately. It's at the back of the mechanism, where the hammer hits the string, that electronic instruments show their defect. Longer keys are usually better, but it's how they behave when you move them that really counts.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
Re: Actions compared [Re: hpeterh] #1541403
10/23/10 12:03 AM
10/23/10 12:03 AM
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Atlanta
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I feel longer keys really make a difference in how expressive one can play on an acoustic grand piano. A key on a baby grand is so much shorter than on a concert grand. However, the difference between the keys on a digital piano is at best, not very much, and I don't think it would much of a difference.

Kawai moving the center pin on the black notes I think makes a big difference as I have trouble playing chromatic passages well on my MP8 which doesn't have this enhancement. In the digital piano, I feel the quality of the design is more important than the actual key length.

I use to work as a factory rep for Yamaha/Everett 30 years ago. The Everett had a Pratt/Reid action and of couse the Yamaha had a Yamaha action. They were made on the same line. 100 Everetts (all of the same cabinet) then 100 Yamahas. The key was the same length, but the responsiveness of the actions were miles apart.


Don
Re: Actions compared [Re: hpeterh] #1541876
10/23/10 04:54 PM
10/23/10 04:54 PM
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hpeterh, please bear in mind that the key of the RM3 is indeed the longest of all DPs because it continues to the left. The mechanics is different to an ordinary DP keyboard. This also makes a big difference: There is some additional weight after the pivot point additional to the hammer, that leads to a more weighed behaviour. Additionally the pivot point is not "fixed" in the middle, it can somehow "jump", while the RH3 or PHA keys are fixed at the end of the key. No "jumping" key possible. I don't know how to describe this correctly in English... But I think this is the reason why I have the feeling that the key has more realism like a real (upright) piano.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: Actions compared [Re: mucci] #1541916
10/23/10 05:41 PM
10/23/10 05:41 PM
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hpeterh Offline OP
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Hello mucci,

Yes, thank you.
It is just the case that I have decided to look to this singular and easily measurable feature.
Being aware about of that, of course anybody that intends to invest a lot of money and time and work must still try it himself on a real target object.

There might be learning pianists that aim to play advanced classical repertoire where it is required to play a lot between the black and white keys and that finally target a real acoustical grand. For those this problem might be important.

There might be a lot of others where other aspects -including fingertraining, repetitivity and else - are more important.

I myself are still happy with my Kawai keyboard, but I am very interested in todays and yesterdays technology and visit the piano dealer (rockshop) from time to time to try new models. And I will continue to do so and at my next visit I will particular focus my attention to the influence of keylength.

Finally I think, everybody should be aware that no keyboard exists that fulfills everybodys wishes.
Remember: Chopin preferred uprights, so far I know.
Now, listen his music....
Best,

Peter

Last edited by hpeterh; 10/23/10 06:05 PM.

1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
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Re: Actions compared [Re: mucci] #1542432
10/24/10 02:03 PM
10/24/10 02:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 824
Germany
hpeterh Offline OP
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Originally Posted by mucci
hpeterh, please bear in mind that the key of the RM3 is indeed the longest of all DPs because it continues to the left. The mechanics is different to an ordinary DP keyboard. This also makes a big difference: There is some additional weight after the pivot point additional to the hammer, that leads to a more weighed behaviour. Additionally the pivot point is not "fixed" in the middle, it can somehow "jump", while the RH3 or PHA keys are fixed at the end of the key.


Hi mucci, yes that is correct because the key is longer and massive it has more mass inertia and the behaviour is closer to a real piano. It plays smoother and more quiet. I like this behaviour and already mentioned it elsewhere.

But the leverage effect that results from the distance pivot-keyfront is the shortest for the kawai and shorter than other big brand DP's. See my drawing above, I updated it in order to avoid this misunderstanding.

BTW, I cannot understand how the pivot point can move. The pivot pin is steel and about 5.5mm thick and fits very accurately into the pivot hole. I know this, because I widened the holes a little bit in order to reduce friction.
The process that I did is very much the same as in this video:


Best,

Peter

Last edited by hpeterh; 10/24/10 03:57 PM.

1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
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Re: Actions compared [Re: hpeterh] #1542472
10/24/10 03:18 PM
10/24/10 03:18 PM
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awesome thread!

Re: Actions compared [Re: hpeterh] #1542565
10/24/10 05:43 PM
10/24/10 05:43 PM
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UK
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spanishbuddha Online content
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Interesting video, and I think it shows the 'jumping' key motion or action that mucci tries to describe? The key pivot is not a fixed hinge.

Re: Actions compared [Re: spanishbuddha] #1542803
10/25/10 01:58 AM
10/25/10 01:58 AM
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Germany
hpeterh Offline OP
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Maybe I understand it wrong.
But that jumping that is shown is for testing only. I must not and does not happen during normal playing. This would make a lot of clack-clack noise.

Peter


1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
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Re: Actions compared [Re: hpeterh] #1542898
10/25/10 06:31 AM
10/25/10 06:31 AM
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If the "jumping motion" means a lengthwise movement of the key, rather than a pure rotation, then my MP9000 doesn't allow much of this at all. (I tried to push & pull the key at various normal angles of the key). However, it may be that the axis of rotation is slightly below the bottom of the key - not sure.

Greg.

Re: Actions compared [Re: sullivang] #1542902
10/25/10 06:42 AM
10/25/10 06:42 AM
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hpeterh Offline OP
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If this movement is more than 0.1 to 0.2 mm then the action must be considered as worn out or defective.



1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
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Re: Actions compared [Re: hpeterh] #1542922
10/25/10 07:40 AM
10/25/10 07:40 AM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
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I think that, from physics point of view, what matters is the ratio between the arms of a lever and not the absolute length of one of the arms. You've probably heard the Archimedes quote "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." wink

The absolute length of the front arm may have some effect on heaviness perception when you are pressing the key in different points indeed, because the longer the front arm is, the less the difference between ratios would be in the different points you press the key.


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Re: Actions compared [Re: CyberGene] #1542934
10/25/10 07:58 AM
10/25/10 07:58 AM
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hpeterh Offline OP
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What you finally mean is probably the overall leverage ratio between key and hammer.
That is usually about 5 for Grandpianos and is about 3 for my AWA Grand pro keyboard.
This is indeed another important characterization that the piano techs in the other forum will happily explain. (I think so ;-)

But that is another story and cannot be analyzed with these images, and so I do not intent to investigate it.

Also I dont think the value of 3 is wrong. Because the total mass and mass distribution in a real Grand is different there is probably some correction necessary and I have the feeling this is done right.

Best,

Peter

Last edited by hpeterh; 10/25/10 11:06 AM.

1929 Galaxy Blüthner Baby Grand
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Re: Actions compared [Re: hpeterh] #2258131
04/07/14 12:45 PM
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Can someone post for Yamaha GHS?
Thanks! Or just let me know if the pivot point is just clearly the same as Yamaha GH3.

Re: Actions compared [Re: Gi Dy] #2258326
04/07/14 06:13 PM
04/07/14 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Gi Dy
Can someone post for Yamaha GHS?
Thanks! Or just let me know if the pivot point is just clearly the same as Yamaha GH3.


Looking at the diagram the pivot is way different from the GH or the GH3 which is the same. The action is lighter perhaps to compensate for this . .

Last edited by peterws; 04/07/14 06:15 PM.

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Re: Actions compared [Re: hpeterh] #2258387
04/07/14 09:05 PM
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The GHS and GH/GHE/GH3 are not the same. GHS uses 2 contact points between the key and the structure. The GH/GHE/GH3 use 3 contact points. This makes the key feel more solid as it eliminates some of the side-to-side movement and also eliminates some slop between the key and the hammer. The weight and action feel similar, but the GHS feels sloppy and is noisy in comparison.

There is a pic of the GHS in this thread (#2209989). I don't know how to post pics here.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb.../all/Comparison_of_Portable_Digital.html

Last edited by Joe Garfield; 04/07/14 09:07 PM.
Re: Actions compared [Re: Gi Dy] #2258467
04/08/14 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Gi Dy
Can someone post for Yamaha GHS?
Thanks! Or just let me know if the pivot point is just clearly the same as Yamaha GH3.


Her y`are. Scroll down, you`ll see all there is. No p[ivot, just a bendy plastic bit. On the black notes, it`s a bit further back.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2217001/Yamaha_P105_teardown.html


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