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As the mother of a 6-year-old girl, I agree completely with Elissa's post above.

Interesting discussion.

and I do take that point that for most 6 years olds, imitation and repetition probably are the best way to learn anything. Its certainly the main focus of school work (repetition of simple single digit addition sums, repetitious reading of the most banal tedious books ever written etc etc).

The problem comes when you have a 6 year old who moves past that. Daughter has declared school to be a place where "You dont learn anything - but its fun to be with my friends". She has chewed up everything thrown at her at school just like she did with the Piano when she started (18 months ago just after her 5th /day).

She now gets home from school and writes her own stories, creates pictures and sculptures, reads age inappropriate novels (currently in middle of Harry Potter) and then tucks into encyclopedias to learn new stuff - without ANY direction from us at all. I'd say she's moved past the point where plain 'imitation' is her best way of learning regardless of what might be expected of somone her age.

If shes happy reading the written word so fluently why is it such a ridiculous proposition to suggest she might be ready to read music 'fluently'?

It isn't, not at all.

The "average" one-year-old is probably very close to nearly every one-year-old's experience. But six-year-olds are all over the map, and the what the average 6 "ought to be" is sometimes extremely far from one's current situation.

well that's the thing: it's not at all inappropriate in this case!!

But seriously, the repetition at school is nothing like the observation and imitation your daughter has been engaging in while learning her pieces. Schools are not designed to create customised learning experiences for students, so no wonder your daughter is bored. [I must confess my experience of school was very similar to your description above!!!]

There is no reason why your daughter shouldn't be an excellent reader. A new btw.... a child can learn to be an astonishing reader via observation and imitation.... I think it's good that you are seeking a teacher who will be more holistically attuned to your daughter's needs and interests.

So let me get this right - you guys are saying that pre-7, kids shouldn't look at notation at all. Not up = right down=left, not lines notes and space notes, no notation at all. Everything should be rote learnt??

I find under 7s particularly difficult (apart from the odd genius) so this is very interesting to me. Maybe I'm going about it all wrong. But how do you give them practice assignments, if it's all in their heads??

What book/s do you use for under 7s?

My kids are just like this. We actually had to remove my child from school after first grade to homeschool. We felt we had no choice in his case. His younger sister is following suit.

The problem I have is trying to find a balance between providing them with challenges and having plenty of time to just be kid. Music lessons really gave them their first opportunity to be challenged. It's a balancing act!

Kids like this do need a teacher that is willing to look at them as an individual instead of as just another 6 year old who is developmentally ready to do X, Y, and Z. To me it sounds like you are making excellent decisions in regards to your particular child! I totally get it. Been there, done that.

Good luck with your transition!

That's an extreme response to the observation that kids under 7 learn through observation and imitation! My own 3.5 year old son just love spelling words, and we do plenty of activities around recognition of shapes and symbols (because he just loves it). I'm no advocate of delaying literacy until kids are 7 - literacy is something that can be a natural part of life right from the start.

But reading rhythm is a whole lot more complex than identifying and distinguishing between pentagons and hexagons, not least because tempo impacts on the experience of the same rhythmic shape. Rhythmic shapes are about patterns of relationships, not simply about straight-forward identity. So whereas I would think that a 6 year could (in theory, rarely in practice!) happily identify note names and pitch patterns such as root position triads and intervals - even sequences - I would be much more surprised to hear of a 6 year old with a full reading literacy of the rhythms expected in performance at a Grade 3 level.

We are talking dotted quaver + semiquaver (dotted eighth note + sixteenth note) = dotted crotchet + quaver (dotted quarter note + eighth note) = dotted minim + crotchet (dotted half note + quarter note) - just as one example. The same performance/listening experience can be notated a number of ways depending on the context provided by the tempo. This is a very complex literacy which does not have a correspondence in English language literacy expected of children under the age of 10 (in fact, arguably, it's beyond the literacy requirements for reading English at any level).

Further, when playing the piano this rhythmic literacy requires an understanding of how to manifest these patterns in two hands, so there is a physical coordination challenge that other forms of literacy are missing entirely.

Now, it's this level of intensity that makes learning to play the piano so effective in increasing the IQ of students (who practice). So it's not a bad thing.

mitts_off: your bigger question (how do you work with 4/5/6 year olds if you don't work primarily from a book) is enormous. And you identify a major challenge that simply has not been met by print music publishers (funnily enough!).

Also, to clarify: I wasn't saying that kids under a certain age should not be learning to read. I just said notation is not the most effective learning tool for kids of this age - for sound developmental reasons kids learn through observation, imitation, exploration and repetition up to about the age of 7. Imagine if a baby had to read a book about how to walk, for instance - RIDICULOUS!!!! It's about trying things out and keeping on trying until they succeed.

And like I said in the previous post, my own son has had high levels of 'literacy' (identifying letters, shapes, etc.) since he was about 15 months old, so I have no interest in perpetuating any kind of "let's keep children reading-innocent" nonsense. Kids can read better than they know, with the right (customised) teaching approach.

No, that's not it. Just that at age 6, children mostly learn through imitation and lots of repetition, as Elissa said. They are learning through play, and are still a little bit in that "suspension of disbelief" stage, so you can really tap their imaginations to help them learn. The characters on the page are still real to them.

For my DD, after learning 12 notes on the staff, it is time to go back and review a few notes at a time, because it's a little too much and she gets frustrated. But we do work on notation skills.



Me, too! "Under 7s" require tons of patience, and I find I have to "think like a 4-to-6-year-old" the entire time. Mostly they are learning through play/fun. That said, they are very capable of learning the notation, but it has to be gradual and with a lot of spiral teaching (that's the term, right?).

I use My First Piano Adventures with this age group, and after Book B, the Gold Star Performance Primer level to go along with Book C (because book C has no CD yet). I also use some of my own and other teachers' materials to supplement. We sing a lot and tap rhythms, and use movement, lots of "manipulatives" and games.

Having children ages 3 and 6, I am now very interested in learning how best to teach this age, too. It is fascinating to watch them learn. Sometimes a little befuddling as well!

FYI - I had 'the' conversation with daughters now ex-teacher. He was ery understanding and said, "Sad as I am to see her go, you are without question doing the right thing! With more expert guidance she is going to do amazing things".

Wife was at the music school (with yonger daughter) today and spoke to the schools boss who again re-iterated that it was definately the best thing for our daughter and that her teacher had actually suggested to him several times that they try and find a more specialist teacher to transfer to.

So all is good... everyone happy - just one final parting lesson tonight and a final performance in the annual school concert thing in 2 weeks time to go.


Quick question: Parting gift to teacher - Wine, Whisky or something else? hmmmm

DadAgain ~ That's fabulous news! I'm glad everyone is happy. Can't really recommend a particular gift since I do not know him, though, if it were me ...chocolate. Or a gift certificate for coffee or perhaps music. Best of luck with the new teacher!



[Very much OT . . . World Equestrian Games are over (and DH is home for a few weeks), so I'll have more time to contribute here. Not sure if that's a good thing or not, heh!]

Glad it wasn't to be dreaded after all

For me nothing would beat a card that your daughter makes herself and then writes in, with a message from you as well. You can add something with the card if you like.

First lesson with new teacher yesterday:

It was a hit - teacher really disected daughters hand position and talked about finger strength and the need to 'drive' 4th and 5th fingers a little harder to ensure even tone with others. She also talked about bringing out melody lines more and lightening accompanyment. Daughter lapped it up, changed what she was doing, paid attention and gave it a go.

After 30 minutes of uber-slow work on those issues daughter replayed a couple of pieces and the difference was clear and immediate.

Of course this focus on 'touch' really concentrates my mind on my Piano purchasing plans (see my other thread for details) - but all in all I'm impressed. I wish I had a teacher like that when I was younger. Just listening to her now I can imagine *my* piano playing getting better!

Finger strength is one of the make or breaks of a good pianist, and balance between the hands is also extremely important. I'm glad to hear your daughter is being receptive to the ideas of a new teacher straight away - that's very mature of her