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#1531520 - 10/09/10 08:44 AM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: Canonie]  
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Originally Posted by Canonie
I sometimes wonder if people are not so much offended by the silence in 4'33 as offended by the lack of skill required to perform it. It's not clever - and that can be hard for some people to swallow.

It's funny you say that specifically. At one point I really disliked Cage (all I knew about him was this piece), for the same reason I disliked artists who put up a white canvas and call it art: Not that "it's not clever", but that it's *too* clever. There's no real work behind it: instead of an honest creation forged from honest materials, we get an abstract, clever idea. Not impressed: anyone can do that.

(Anyway, that's how I used to think. Since hearing more of Cage's works, I have revised my opinion.)

-Jason


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
#1531608 - 10/09/10 11:21 AM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: wr]  
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by hat
Originally Posted by wr
No representation of sound.


Or a representation of no sound?


Well, it's your file, so why don't you tell us, instead of playing games?



Actually, I was clarifying your definition of blank audio. It has nothing to do with my file.


Repertoire
John Cage: 4'33"
#1531690 - 10/09/10 01:05 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: beet31425]  
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Originally Posted by beet31425
.....(Anyway, that's how I used to think. Since hearing more of Cage's works, I have revised my opinion.)

Yes. smile

Including, look at what kind of discussion it leads to, such as right here.

And it's not true that it doesn't take skill (or whatever we should call it) to 'perform' 4'33. It takes some understanding (however little, maybe) smile and I think there are a lot of people who might go on stage and wouldn't be able to 'bring it off,' in any of the ways that it might be 'brought off.'
But then again, those are probably people who wouldn't care to.

And IMO it is "clever" -- or some such. But I can easily see why some people would think it isn't.

#1531883 - 10/09/10 06:13 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: hat]  
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Originally Posted by hat
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by hat
Originally Posted by wr
No representation of sound.


Or a representation of no sound?


Well, it's your file, so why don't you tell us, instead of playing games?



Actually, I was clarifying your definition of blank audio. It has nothing to do with my file.


If it had nothing to do with your file, we wouldn't be talking about it, because the only reference to blank audio was to the blank audio in your file. If you know a better term for it, let us know. I'm not an audio engineer and I would imagine there probably is a standard term for "empty" time in a digital audio file, but I don't know what it is.


#1531897 - 10/09/10 06:26 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: wr]  
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by hat
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by hat
Originally Posted by wr
No representation of sound.


Or a representation of no sound?


Well, it's your file, so why don't you tell us, instead of playing games?



Actually, I was clarifying your definition of blank audio. It has nothing to do with my file.


If it had nothing to do with your file, we wouldn't be talking about it, because the only reference to blank audio was to the blank audio in your file. If you know a better term for it, let us know. I'm not an audio engineer and I would imagine there probably is a standard term for "empty" time in a digital audio file, but I don't know what it is.



Obviously it was brought up in the context of my file, but it would be circular logic to have a definition of blank audio based on my file.

Nonetheless, here is what I would like to know: let us assume, for the sake of argument (I'm not saying it was, but I'm also not saying it wasn't) that the particular recording of 4'33" which I have uploaded was recorded in an absolutely silent room with one observer watching from behind a glass door, making absolutely no sound herself. In summary, there is no sound. At all.

Does it count as a legitimate performance?


Repertoire
John Cage: 4'33"
#1531942 - 10/09/10 07:42 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: hat]  
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Originally Posted by hat
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by hat
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by hat
Originally Posted by wr
No representation of sound.


Or a representation of no sound?


Well, it's your file, so why don't you tell us, instead of playing games?



Actually, I was clarifying your definition of blank audio. It has nothing to do with my file.


If it had nothing to do with your file, we wouldn't be talking about it, because the only reference to blank audio was to the blank audio in your file. If you know a better term for it, let us know. I'm not an audio engineer and I would imagine there probably is a standard term for "empty" time in a digital audio file, but I don't know what it is.



Obviously it was brought up in the context of my file, but it would be circular logic to have a definition of blank audio based on my file.

Nonetheless, here is what I would like to know: let us assume, for the sake of argument (I'm not saying it was, but I'm also not saying it wasn't) that the particular recording of 4'33" which I have uploaded was recorded in an absolutely silent room with one observer watching from behind a glass door, making absolutely no sound herself. In summary, there is no sound. At all.

Does it count as a legitimate performance?


As far as I know, it isn't possible to make a recording such as you describe, with no sound at all, so the question doesn't make real life sense to me.

But speaking in the abstract, if there was a pianist or other instrumentalist actually performing it, I can't see why it would not be a legitimate performance, regardless of recorded results. A recording wouldn't really have any bearing on whether the performance is legitimate; a performance doesn't require recording for validation.



#1532001 - 10/09/10 09:25 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: wr]  
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Originally Posted by wr
As far as I know, it isn't possible to make a recording such as you describe, with no sound at all, so the question doesn't make real life sense to me.
It wasn't supposed to. That's why I wrote "for the sake of argument."

Originally Posted by wr
But speaking in the abstract, if there was a pianist or other instrumentalist actually performing it, I can't see why it would not be a legitimate performance, regardless of recorded results. A recording wouldn't really have any bearing on whether the performance is legitimate; a performance doesn't require recording for validation.

Interesting; here:
Originally Posted by wr
I am curious in what sense you think the hat file is a performance. To me, it isn't one; it's just an empty audio file.
you seem to be discrediting any possibility (or legitimacy) of even our hypothetical performance, solely from the recording.

But, as you nonetheless admitted, a performance of 4'33" having one observer and producing no sound whatsoever is legitimate - just as legitimate, in fact, as an analogous performance of a piece that produced sound. Why, then, should this recording of silence be any different? In fact, let's say that you moved your ear (which you might have placed against the speaker while listening to my recorded performance, however hypothetical it may be) to the glass door from which the observer was listening: the end result would be exactly the same. Except, of course, your mind would be set at rest seeing a real live performer sitting at the bench doing absolutely nothing, rather than trying to figure out whether or not some clown on the piano forums actually recorded 4'33".

Last edited by hat; 10/10/10 12:04 AM. Reason: outplayed by wr

Repertoire
John Cage: 4'33"
#1532009 - 10/09/10 09:47 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: hat]  
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"Much ado about nothing"..... grin grin grin


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#1532020 - 10/09/10 10:24 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: hat]  
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Originally Posted by hat
.......





Edited by hat (52 minutes 43 seconds ago)
Edit Reason: none in particular aside from creating the impression of a well-thought out reply

Post of the year! ha ha ha

#1532044 - 10/09/10 11:28 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: hat]  
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I'd rather listen to 4'33" than a lot of other pieces or music that take up the same amount of time or more.

#1532060 - 10/09/10 11:56 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: hat]  
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Originally Posted by hat
Originally Posted by wr
As far as I know, it isn't possible to make a recording such as you describe, with no sound at all, so the question doesn't make real life sense to me.
It wasn't supposed to. That's why I wrote "for the sake of argument."

Originally Posted by wr
But speaking in the abstract, if there was a pianist or other instrumentalist actually performing it, I can't see why it would not be a legitimate performance, regardless of recorded results. A recording wouldn't really have any bearing on whether the performance is legitimate; a performance doesn't require recording for validation.

Interesting; here:
Originally Posted by wr
I am curious in what sense you think the hat file is a performance. To me, it isn't one; it's just an empty audio file.
you seem to be discrediting any possibility (or legitimacy) of even our hypothetical performance, solely from the recording.

But, as you nonetheless admitted, a performance of 4'33" having one observer and producing no sound whatsoever is legitimate - just as legitimate, in fact, as an analogous performance of a piece that produced sound. Why, then, should this recording of silence be any different? In fact, let's say that you moved your ear (which you might have placed against the speaker while listening to my recorded performance, however hypothetical it may be) to the glass door from which the observer was listening: the end result would be except the same. Except, of course, your mind would be set at rest seeing a real live performer sitting at the bench doing absolutely nothing, rather than trying to figure out whether or not some clown on the piano forums actually recorded 4'33".


Um, your edit didn't quite achieve the desired result - "the end result would be except the same". smile

Since the hypothetical performance didn't occur, I am having trouble understanding the point of trying to draw yet more attenuated hypothetical ideas from it. But, just going along as a thought experiment - I don't think the end result would be the same. If I am separated from the performer by a barrier, that alters the situation for me as a listener to such a degree that I wouldn't say that I was in fact listening to a performance of the piece.

#1532175 - 10/10/10 08:40 AM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: hat]  
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What an awesome thread.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#1532176 - 10/10/10 08:50 AM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: Pogorelich.]  
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
What an awesome thread.


Yeah... Arguing over nothing.

(Hehe, what a pun!)

#1532180 - 10/10/10 08:58 AM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: hat]  
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And all the people were afraid to tell the emperor that he was naked.


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#1532417 - 10/10/10 03:13 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: Studio Joe]  
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I have no doubt Hat is LHAO.

#1532462 - 10/10/10 04:38 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: Orange Soda King]  
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
.....Arguing over nothing.

(Hehe, what a pun!)

.....and that's the 2nd greatest post of the year ha

#1532474 - 10/10/10 04:56 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: hat]  
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As a professional in the field of philosophy I actually find it in bad taste that some seem to think this topic is 'nothing' or in some way uninteresting.

This is the kind of question philosophers of art write about.

I doubt any of you appreciate hearing that your chosen field is a waste of time.

For those who are interested in studying this kind of question more formally, a good discussion of the question of what constitutes an object of art is contained in Richard Wollheim's book: Art and Its Objects.

That's not the same question as what a performance is, but one could imagine similar considerations, and a similar analytic method to what he uses there.


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#1532478 - 10/10/10 05:04 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: charleslang]  
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Originally Posted by charleslang
As a professional in the field of philosophy I actually find it in bad taste that some seem to think this topic is 'nothing' or in some way uninteresting......

I agree completely with your post, except that I wouldn't put it as strongly. I don't think their view is in bad taste.....just narrow-minded.

Although actually I'm not sure which they would feel is worse. smile

#1532482 - 10/10/10 05:10 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: charleslang]  
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Originally Posted by charleslang
As a professional in the field of philosophy I actually find it in bad taste that some seem to think this topic is 'nothing' or in some way uninteresting.

This is the kind of question philosophers of art write about.

I doubt any of you appreciate hearing that your chosen field is a waste of time.

For those who are interested in studying this kind of question more formally, a good discussion of the question of what constitutes an object of art is contained in Richard Wollheim's book: Art and Its Objects.

That's not the same question as what a performance is, but one could imagine similar considerations, and a similar analytic method to what he uses there.



Purely out of curiosity, may i ask what your profession in the field of philosophy is?


All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
#1532485 - 10/10/10 05:17 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: charleslang]  
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Originally Posted by charleslang
As a professional in the field of philosophy I actually find it in bad taste that some seem to think this topic is 'nothing' or in some way uninteresting.


Bad taste? A little disrespectful perhaps....but not bad taste. smile



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#1532490 - 10/10/10 05:22 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: Carey]  
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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by charleslang
As a professional in the field of philosophy I actually find it in bad taste that some seem to think this topic is 'nothing' or in some way uninteresting.


Bad taste? A little disrespectful perhaps....but not bad taste. smile



Maybe you're right. I just mean that it should be viewed as similar to someone coming onto one of the threads where pianists are discussing music, saying something like 'this is all uninteresting . . . '.



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#1532491 - 10/10/10 05:24 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: TheHappyMoron]  
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Originally Posted by TheCannibalHaddock
Originally Posted by charleslang
As a professional in the field of philosophy I actually find it in bad taste that some seem to think this topic is 'nothing' or in some way uninteresting.

This is the kind of question philosophers of art write about.

I doubt any of you appreciate hearing that your chosen field is a waste of time.

For those who are interested in studying this kind of question more formally, a good discussion of the question of what constitutes an object of art is contained in Richard Wollheim's book: Art and Its Objects.

That's not the same question as what a performance is, but one could imagine similar considerations, and a similar analytic method to what he uses there.



Purely out of curiosity, may i ask what your profession in the field of philosophy is?


I teach courses and am a graduate student.


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#1532493 - 10/10/10 05:25 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: charleslang]  
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Originally Posted by charleslang
Originally Posted by TheCannibalHaddock
Originally Posted by charleslang
As a professional in the field of philosophy I actually find it in bad taste that some seem to think this topic is 'nothing' or in some way uninteresting.

This is the kind of question philosophers of art write about.

I doubt any of you appreciate hearing that your chosen field is a waste of time.

For those who are interested in studying this kind of question more formally, a good discussion of the question of what constitutes an object of art is contained in Richard Wollheim's book: Art and Its Objects.

That's not the same question as what a performance is, but one could imagine similar considerations, and a similar analytic method to what he uses there.



Purely out of curiosity, may i ask what your profession in the field of philosophy is?


I teach courses and am a graduate student.


Ahh very good! and thankyou for the reply smile


All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
#1532528 - 10/10/10 06:00 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: TheHappyMoron]  
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Originally Posted by TheCannibalHaddock
Ahh very good! and thankyou for the reply smile

Huh......that really answered your question? ha

I thought you also meant what was his area in philosophy.....

#1532541 - 10/10/10 06:33 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: Mark_C]  
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by TheCannibalHaddock
Ahh very good! and thankyou for the reply smile

Huh......that really answered your question? ha

I thought you also meant what was his area in philosophy.....


Haha! Yes that answer was more than adequate! I was more interested in what careers there actually was in philosophy and he/she gave me one.


All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
#1532544 - 10/10/10 06:35 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: deAlmeida]  
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Originally Posted by al-mahed
I have no doubt Hat is LHAO.


Since he earlier referred to himself indirectly as "some clown", that may be a reasonable speculation.

But, so what?





#1532546 - 10/10/10 06:42 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: wr]  
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by hat
Originally Posted by wr
As far as I know, it isn't possible to make a recording such as you describe, with no sound at all, so the question doesn't make real life sense to me.
It wasn't supposed to. That's why I wrote "for the sake of argument."

Originally Posted by wr
But speaking in the abstract, if there was a pianist or other instrumentalist actually performing it, I can't see why it would not be a legitimate performance, regardless of recorded results. A recording wouldn't really have any bearing on whether the performance is legitimate; a performance doesn't require recording for validation.

Interesting; here:
Originally Posted by wr
I am curious in what sense you think the hat file is a performance. To me, it isn't one; it's just an empty audio file.
you seem to be discrediting any possibility (or legitimacy) of even our hypothetical performance, solely from the recording.

But, as you nonetheless admitted, a performance of 4'33" having one observer and producing no sound whatsoever is legitimate - just as legitimate, in fact, as an analogous performance of a piece that produced sound. Why, then, should this recording of silence be any different? In fact, let's say that you moved your ear (which you might have placed against the speaker while listening to my recorded performance, however hypothetical it may be) to the glass door from which the observer was listening: the end result would be except the same. Except, of course, your mind would be set at rest seeing a real live performer sitting at the bench doing absolutely nothing, rather than trying to figure out whether or not some clown on the piano forums actually recorded 4'33".


Um, your edit didn't quite achieve the desired result - "the end result would be except the same". smile

Since the hypothetical performance didn't occur,
Irrelevant. The hypothetical recording exists, so, to you, the existence of the hypothetical performance has no consequence (other than, as I said, setting your mind at ease).
Originally Posted by wr
I am having trouble understanding the point of trying to draw yet more attenuated hypothetical ideas from it. But, just going along as a thought experiment - I don't think the end result would be the same. If I am separated from the performer by a barrier, that alters the situation for me as a listener to such a degree that I wouldn't say that I was in fact listening to a performance of the piece.

Fine, let's say there was no barrier. I only added that in order to emphasize the fact that the listener's presence had no impact on the sound in the room.

This brings me to my next question: we've now established that 4'33" is, in unaltered form, silence - nothing more (which is exactly what I've posted). So, what exactly is the significance of 4'33", given that there are no instructions on the score to "perform in a room with ambient noise?"




Repertoire
John Cage: 4'33"
#1532547 - 10/10/10 06:42 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: Orange Soda King]  
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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King


Yeah... Arguing over nothing.

(Hehe, what a pun!)


That pun already turned up in a post from carey. But, of course, 4'33" isn't "nothing".

#1532548 - 10/10/10 06:44 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: wr]  
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King


Yeah... Arguing over nothing.

(Hehe, what a pun!)


That pun already turned up in a post from carey. But, of course, 4'33" isn't "nothing".

What is it?


Repertoire
John Cage: 4'33"
#1532554 - 10/10/10 06:51 PM Re: Cage: 4'33 [Re: hat]  
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Originally Posted by hat
Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by hat
Originally Posted by wr
As far as I know, it isn't possible to make a recording such as you describe, with no sound at all, so the question doesn't make real life sense to me.
It wasn't supposed to. That's why I wrote "for the sake of argument."

Originally Posted by wr
But speaking in the abstract, if there was a pianist or other instrumentalist actually performing it, I can't see why it would not be a legitimate performance, regardless of recorded results. A recording wouldn't really have any bearing on whether the performance is legitimate; a performance doesn't require recording for validation.

Interesting; here:
Originally Posted by wr
I am curious in what sense you think the hat file is a performance. To me, it isn't one; it's just an empty audio file.
you seem to be discrediting any possibility (or legitimacy) of even our hypothetical performance, solely from the recording.

But, as you nonetheless admitted, a performance of 4'33" having one observer and producing no sound whatsoever is legitimate - just as legitimate, in fact, as an analogous performance of a piece that produced sound. Why, then, should this recording of silence be any different? In fact, let's say that you moved your ear (which you might have placed against the speaker while listening to my recorded performance, however hypothetical it may be) to the glass door from which the observer was listening: the end result would be except the same. Except, of course, your mind would be set at rest seeing a real live performer sitting at the bench doing absolutely nothing, rather than trying to figure out whether or not some clown on the piano forums actually recorded 4'33".


Um, your edit didn't quite achieve the desired result - "the end result would be except the same". smile

Since the hypothetical performance didn't occur,
Irrelevant. The hypothetical recording exists, so, to you, the existence of the hypothetical performance has no consequence (other than, as I said, setting your mind at ease).



No, the hypothetical recording doesn't exist. It wouldn't be hypothetical if it did. In addition, you seem to be assuming that my earlier statement about the performance was spoken from the POV of a listener. It wasn't.

Quote

Originally Posted by wr
I am having trouble understanding the point of trying to draw yet more attenuated hypothetical ideas from it. But, just going along as a thought experiment - I don't think the end result would be the same. If I am separated from the performer by a barrier, that alters the situation for me as a listener to such a degree that I wouldn't say that I was in fact listening to a performance of the piece.

Fine, let's say there was no barrier. I only added that in order to emphasize the fact that the performer's presence had no impact on the sound in the room.

This brings me to my next question: we've now established that 4'33" is, in unaltered form, silence - nothing more (which is exactly what I've posted). So, what exactly is the significance of 4'33", given that there are no instructions on the score to "perform in a room with ambient noise?"




Nope, nothing was established, other than that you are trying to make that bogus "recording" of 4'33" into something it isn't.



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