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Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: sullivang] #1530058 10/07/10 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
A grand piano has double escapement.
My Casio has double escapement.
The Kawai RM3 actions do NOT have double escapement.

That is all I am saying.


Yes, that's true, but it doesn't help either to repeat it a thousand times. It's just pure theory. It's like theJourney and others stated: You have to play the DP for yourself and check what keyboard action meets your needs the best. This is really easy to find out:

0. Preconditions: Bring plenty of time with you (min. 3h); you need a store with all the DPs you consider buying (that might be the difficult part)
1. Go to a local dealer with lots of DPs
2. Get a decent pair of headphones (closed headphones to not get disturbed by the "background" noise)
3. For each DP: Do extensive playing like you do at home / on stage. Check for action and sound. If you recognize differences, check again if it was not just a coincidence. Narrow down your choice if you recognize that a specific action is not your taste at all. At the end compare those two models extensively which you prefer most. Best is to stop at some point and come back again on another day. There might be changes in mood, physical condition / whatever that might have influenced your preference.
I checked all models in my price range, also the more expensive and cheaper ones to get an idea if the price range is really worth it or accurate.
At the end your choice should be quite clear. In my case (back in January this year) there was absolutely no doubt which model to choose.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
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Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: sullivang] #1530063 10/07/10 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
I would expect the MP10's action to be better IN EVERY WAY to my Casio.


I would expect the action of my desired DP to be satisfying and meeting all my needs (value for money of course).


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: mucci] #1530065 10/07/10 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mucci
It's just pure theory. It's like theJourney and others stated: You have to play the DP for yourself and check what keyboard action meets your needs the best. This is really easy to find out:


I never said otherwise. There is no harm in knowing what features the DP's have and do not have before you perform your testing.

I am quite willing to reword my original statement:

"A POSSIBLE minus: the MP10 does not have double escapement. The Roland does".

Greg.

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: sullivang] #1530074 10/07/10 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
I am quite willing to reword my original statement:

"A POSSIBLE minus: the MP10 does not have double escapement. The Roland does".


For what purpose? I have no problem with your finding and wording. I myself stated that for CA63. This is a no-issue. So let's move on.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1530078 10/07/10 08:04 AM
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Mucci,
I thought you thought I was trying to say that the fact that the MP10 lacks double escapement was DEFINITELY a disadvantage, for everyone. Given that, I wanted to make it clear that I am merely stating that it lacks that feature, and it is up to each individual to assess whether the lack of this feature is important to them or not.

Greg.

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1530079 10/07/10 08:05 AM
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Fair enough! I agree. BTW it is nowhere stated that it has this feature. So let's move on... wink

Last edited by mucci; 10/07/10 08:07 AM.

<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1530097 10/07/10 08:50 AM
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Sincere apologies if this has received coverage elsewhere but does the MP-10 have the "RM3 with let-off" as per the CA-93 or the "RM3" as per the CA-63? Can I assume what Kawai calls "let-off" simulates the feel of a grand piano escapement but does NOT provide the functionality, ie, the ability for a note to be re-struck without fully releasing the key?

It matters not (to me) really as I do not have the technical playing ability to exploit this feature but I would like to know. For what it's worth that was the only significant difference between Roland PHA-II and III...the III really does allow lightning quick and believable repetition. Whilst I can physically achieve enough dexterity to expose the difference I can't do it in a musically profitable way!

Cheers,

Steve


C. Bechstein Model B | Yamaha P-515 | Roland RD-1000
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1530108 10/07/10 09:02 AM
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I thought this was clear now....

CA93 just has the let-off feel, not the functionality. For me this is of no benefit, other might consider this useful. Both CA63 and CA93 have two sensors, there is no way to provide the double escapement functionality with only two sensors.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1530122 10/07/10 09:28 AM
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The MP10 is the same as the CA93, which has let-off simulation.

Aaron


Playing since April 2010.
Kawai MP10
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1530138 10/07/10 09:57 AM
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Ok, many thanks. A bit of digging and I would've found the answer I suppose but thanks again.

The number of sensors is of no particular relevance to me... and certainly would not discourage me from buying any particular piano.

For what it's worth I have owned a Roland with both PHA-II and III...I don't find the III to be nicer at all despite its third sensor. But there is more to the repetition ability than just the number of sensors. I also have a Nord Piano (Fatar action) and it has faster/smoother repetition than the Roland RD-700GX (PHA-II)...but both have just two sensors (I'm not talking about the keys' physical ability to be struck and to return, but the way subsequent notes sound). The difference is small but quite easily perceptible. The Nord is of course nowhere near as good at repetitions as the PHA-III but part of the issue must be about sensor positioning and trigger points too.

So I guess it's possible that Kawai have a sensor "geometry" that works well, despite there being only two.

Steve


C. Bechstein Model B | Yamaha P-515 | Roland RD-1000
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: sullivang] #1530298 10/07/10 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
I would expect the MP10's action to be better IN EVERY WAY to my Casio.


I understand the sentiment. However, the Kawai mechanism is an entirely different device. Maybe something about its design would make it difficult or expensive to add that feature. Or maybe they're still working on that aspect of the design for a future version, but didn't want to hold up releasing what they already had, since it's superior in many other ways, and the "missing feature" may not matter to many people. Or for that matter, maybe the extra sensor in the Casio is an attempt to address a problem that may not exist (or exist to the same extent) in the Kawai, due to other design differences... i.e., until we have some people actually play both keyboards and confirm that they can actually repeat a note more quickly on a Casio than a Kawai, we don't know for sure that this is a limitation of the Kawai in the first place. What's important is how they play, not which technologies they use to get there.

Also, "better in every way" is a difficult standard because (a) people don't always agree on what feels better, and (b) in engineering, sometimes improvements in one area come at the expense of something else.

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: mucci] #1530306 10/07/10 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by mucci
there is no way to provide the double escapement functionality with only two sensors.


Picking up from something essbrace said... The point of Casio's third sensor is to permit much faster same-key repetition... but I would not assume that's the only way to achieve that goal. The cheap Yamaha NP-30 permits (to my fingers) much faster repetition than the three-sensor Casios! The keyboard, unweighted, is inferior in other ways, but it is a very "quick" keyboard.

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1530366 10/07/10 03:46 PM
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Faster repetition is only part of the picture. Casio (and Yamaha, and Roland), have added the third sensor so that the overall behaviour is closer to a real grand piano, in the following ways:

1. It allows repetitions for relatively small key returns - LIKE A REAL GRAND PIANO
2. It allows repetitions without the dampers coming into contact with the strings - LIKE A REAL GRAND PIANO
3. It allows the strings to be damped at a relatively high point in the key return - LIKE A REAL GRAND PIANO (and also like an upright piano too)

This all starts with the premise that the keys on these digital pianos move in a similar way and velocity to a real grand piano.
Yes, an organ or synth can repeat very rapidly, but the keys behave NOTHING like a piano.

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 10/07/10 03:47 PM.
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: sullivang] #1530409 10/07/10 04:41 PM
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My friend, as long as we're just talking theory, there is no way of finding out what is really better suited for your specific needs.

I tested all current mechanisms, and I have clearly made a decision in favor to the CA63 keyboard action because it gave the best playing experience to me personally. That said, I think I do have a playing style that doesn't need the double escapement. Still I have the feeling that the repetition of the Kawai, compared to the other brands, is quicker with the way I'm playing the piano.

Again, I suggest to get in touch with those keyboard actions in question and check whether it meets your needs for repetition and grand piano accuracy. Everything else is (sorry to insist on this) plain theory and leads to speculation but not to a real experience.


<~ don't test forever - play and enjoy! ~>
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: anotherscott] #1530429 10/07/10 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
What's important is how they play, not which technologies they use to get there.


Never a truer word spoken.

Greg, let's just remind ourselves of what we're trying to achieve here:

Originally Posted by myself
One of my colleagues in the US is lucky enough to have both an MP10 development board and an EX concert grand in his workshop. He can play one instrument for ten minutes, then swivel around in his chair to play the other for ten more. He swears that he often gets them mixed-up. Sure, the concert grand will undoubtedly sound a fair bit louder than the MP10 (although I guess that depends on how his amp is setup), but in terms of key touch, he says he doesn't need to make any adjustments to his playing technique.


Originally Posted by Dr Popper
The action is excellent and VERY similar to the RD700NX action. Close your eyes and your playing a grand ...its that good.


Originally Posted by Dr Popper
The action is good ....very good .... excellent .... and VERY much like a real grand. Close your eyes and your there.


Honestly, the goal of any digital piano action is surely to recreate the feeling of playing an acoustic grand piano. Whether the action features two sensors or three sensors is, I believe, a theoretical irrelevance. In practise, those who have tried the 'RM3 Grand' action (and by this I mean properly playing it) are convinced that they are playing an acoustic grand - job done.

Cheers,
James
x


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"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1530523 10/07/10 06:42 PM
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Okay, let's try to get this thread back on topic, shall we? wink

Here's a new demo clip of the MP6 from Kawai Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGCGvV0yFsc

(make sure you watch in at least 480p for stereo sound)

The video is in German, however the general feature explanations should be reasonably easy to follow for non-German speakers...and besides, it's the sound of the instrument that's important - not that language that the demonstrator is speaking.

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1530555 10/07/10 07:24 PM
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The MP6 really has me wondering. While I always like to get the "Top of the line" DP out of a series (the MP series), the MP6 has a lot of the M10's specs but without the price (Sweetwater says: MP10~$2499.00 USD and MP6~$1499.00 USD) and the weight. I already own an RD700GXF, but I am curious about the MP's for better Rhodes and possible better dimensions (actual width for gigging). I just can't stand the fact that Roland continues to extend their STAGE PIANOS with a joystick pitch bender more suitable for their synths. Kawai was very smart for not extending their boards anymore than they have to. It would be very interesting to see if these new MP series's can pass the acoustic piano (emulation) looping test. Basically are there noticeable looping in the samples. I am very curious about this, because I have been somewhat spoiled with my RD700GXF and audible looping (now) just will not do for me (like in the past when there was really no choice...older DP technology).

BTW....Kawai James, that demo sounds great and the Rhodes emulations really sound good. Do the new Rhodes emulations use the same PHI technology as the acoustic pianos? I ask this because I know that Kawai digital acoustic piano emulations have been great for non-noticeable velocity layers (unfortunately in previous models the sound didn't work for me, maybe now though in these newer models). I only hope that the EP's (Rhodes emulations and Wurlitzer) have the same wide dynamic range.


Rhodes MkII Stage 73, Roland RD700NX
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Kawai James] #1530735 10/08/10 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

Here's a new demo clip of the MP6 from Kawai Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGCGvV0yFsc
x


Those german funk chops, found at an ancestral grave site from the eighties, was a great turn off for me. I hope the worldwide videos feature more actual sounds from the piano than nauseating background midi tracks. Rhodes were nice though.

Sound focus? Market-speak for eq in disguise?


RD-700NX (25 nov 2010)
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: FredFabulous] #1530738 10/08/10 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by FredFabulous
Originally Posted by Kawai James

Here's a new demo clip of the MP6 from Kawai Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGCGvV0yFsc
x


Those german funk chops, found at an ancestral grave site from the eighties, was a great turn off for me. I hope the worldwide videos feature more actual sounds from the piano than nauseating background midi tracks. Rhodes were nice though.

Sound focus? Market-speak for eq in disguise?


LOL. Not only the throwback playing was a turnoff. It seemed the video was actually an advertisement for the German high school nerd goes gangsta' look with sloppy ALDI T-shirt, oversized pinky rings and too big watches. Clearly a video production unburdened by the input from an art director or marketing professional.

And, as icing on the cake, from an organization that presumes to call itself "Kawai Europe", a broadcast in German. Didn't they get the memo that the attempt to impose German as the "Europe" language failed and that English is not only the lingua franca of Europe but the only real common language of most European musicians interested in Kawai products?

Last edited by theJourney; 10/08/10 04:49 AM.
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1530739 10/08/10 04:48 AM
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theJourney... eek Your favourite topic again!! I guess no offense intended in your nice words...

Last edited by mucci; 10/08/10 04:49 AM.

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