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Re: John Cage [Re: Andromaque] #1529258
10/06/10 07:28 AM
10/06/10 07:28 AM
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izaldu Offline
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Wr, I never said an artist can t create anything and call it "art", What i said is that not anything an artist creates must be considered art. What i see on 4.33 is an empty score.

"That analogy doesn't work, because, unlike our hearing, your eyes will not see various things happening in the empty space. But if you listen to 4'33", you will hear something other than silence.

Analogy works exactly the same, in my opinion. You will see something other than nothing. You always do. I really don't know where you a re going ... guess we will not agree on this!

I can´t hear the tube clip now, but will do later - thanks for the heads up.

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Re: John Cage [Re: wr] #1529447
10/06/10 11:59 AM
10/06/10 11:59 AM
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Minneapolis, Minnesota
tomasino Offline
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Quoting WR,

"...Art isn't a popularity contest...."

"...you are still wrong about Cage and 4'33". If you were...wise..., you would know better ... about the motivations of composers...."


WR,
I agree that art is not a popularity contest in a trivial sense. "What is art?," and who deems it so is a very important question to everybody involved in the arts.

I assume from the second quote above, that you're referring to the paragraph where I assert that 4'33" is about audience, as it's the strongest and most pointed opinion I wrote. Regardless of Cage's intended meaning of the piece, the piece has a meaning of its own both socially and individually. I think it's clear that I was asserting my opinion as to what one possible statement of the work is to many people, particularly to the larger concert going audience. If my writing was unclear, I apologize.

As to my personal integrity in making the statement, I readily admit to having strongly stated my opinion--and I signed my name as well, "thereby putting it into its proper context. Anyone reading it knows from that context that I'm expressing my opinion. I don't see it as necessary to use a smiley face or "IMHO" every time I write my opinion. That would be boring, and it weakens my statement. Further, I see nothing deceitful in how I have expressed myself, nor in the opinion itself.

If you disagree with my opinion, take me on. Please. What's your opinion? If you have something more convincing than what I've read so far in this thread, maybe I'll change my mind.

Respectfully,
Tomasino










"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

Re: John Cage [Re: tomasino] #1529808
10/06/10 10:16 PM
10/06/10 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tomasino
What's your opinion?


My opinion is that a person who slanders the intent of a serious composer is not really worth expending much energy on.

Bye.


Re: John Cage [Re: Andromaque] #1529815
10/06/10 10:35 PM
10/06/10 10:35 PM
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something large that i think should be stressed in relation to 4' 33" is that it is not silent, but the sounds of your immediate environment. isn't that amazing, to /anybody/? this one piece can encompass the entire sounds past and present, of the entire world depending on where it is performed! it forces us to unplug our ipods and really listen carefully - i think that is something to be commended!

aleatoric composition is something that is very much ACCEPTED, and yes, it is music.


repertoire for the moment:
bach: prelude and fugue in b-, book i (WTC)
mozart - sonata in D+, k. 576
schumann (transc. liszt) - widmung
coulthard - image astrale
Re: John Cage [Re: tomasino] #1529820
10/06/10 10:50 PM
10/06/10 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tomasino

These answers are an evasion of what is perfectly obvious. It is so perfectly obvious that I'm amazed people don't say it right off the bat. This piece is about audience. It is decisively so, aggresively so, provocatively so, yes, even contemptously so. It is more overtly so than anything Milton Babbitt ever dreamed of.

It is about setting an audience up to be insulted--to get them to attend a concert, and then to have them sit in a trusting state of incomprehension, in a willingness to be tolerant, in a willingness to listen, in a willingness to withhold judgement, and in an unwillingness to believe that someone said to be highly regarded as an artist by his peers, would ask them to waste their time by seriously listening to nonsense. Gullible? Yes. The audience deserves better.

And the performers! Why does even one of them sit still for it? Ask yourself, after having spent years learning how to play--to play perhaps a magnificent Bach Fugue or a Rochmaninoff Concerto--is performing silently what you trained for? In other Cage pieces, is performing with a tuba on your head what you trained for? Did you practice for all those hours to play on a toy piano, or with a rubber duck? Is this fulfilling? Performers, too, deserve better.

And so WR, eventhough I take offense at Cage, I don’t mind at all being addressed as Rip Van Winkle, and I happily admit to being one of the graybeards on Piano Forum. But it shouldn’t be held against me, as my age has enabled me to achieve some wisdom--a certain kind of no-nonsense wisdom. I haven’t been asleep.

Tomasino
I don't mind your post, but I just highlighted a few words and phrases.

4'33" is one of the usual occasions where people actually take offense not only at a work (which for silence is doing great at that), but also at the composer, which seems rather amazing!

This is getting tiresome. I haven't bought a CD with 4'33" of course, and I haven't attended a concert with that on the program, I don't see the point right now. But I still try to stay away from slundering a composer...

Re: John Cage [Re: Andromaque] #1529825
10/06/10 11:00 PM
10/06/10 11:00 PM
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Sometimes when I hear of the avante garde and their compositions, I wonder what happened to the audience as part of the music? I know in 4'33" the audience literally is given the chance to make the music, but where has musical enjoyment by the public gone? Is the role to make enjoyable music for the public that of the mainstream music industry?


Working on:
Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1
Debussy - Images Book II

Re: John Cage [Re: Andromaque] #1529828
10/06/10 11:09 PM
10/06/10 11:09 PM
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I find that the batting average for good new music is about the same no matter what the genre. There is poor music in pop, jazz, folk, classical, whatever, and that predominates. Some of that might find some success with some people. There is some better music which might appeal to a wider audience, and last a bit longer, and there is some great music which has real legs.

4' 33" certainly has legs as a philosophical statement about music; otherwise nobody would be as impassioned about it as can be seen here. That is true of some of Cage's other works. He also wrote great pieces of music.


Semipro Tech
Re: John Cage [Re: Kuanpiano] #1529879
10/07/10 12:49 AM
10/07/10 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kuanpiano
Sometimes when I hear of the avante garde and their compositions, I wonder what happened to the audience as part of the music? I know in 4'33" the audience literally is given the chance to make the music, but where has musical enjoyment by the public gone? Is the role to make enjoyable music for the public that of the mainstream music industry?


If music is interesting, I enjoy it. For me anyway, music being interesting doesn't necessarily have to include the composer attempting to please me. If composers write music that they find genuinely interesting, just for themselves, it will likely also interest me.


Re: John Cage [Re: Andromaque] #1529885
10/07/10 01:03 AM
10/07/10 01:03 AM
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I think people tend to get aggravated with Cage because they feel that "the Emperor has no clothes". That it's all a bunch of BS stunts, the prepared pianos and radio randomness. And 4'33", of course. I used to think this way.

Then I started listening to his Sonatas and Interludes for prepared piano, and I realized what a great revolutionary musical mind Cage has! I may not really understand what he was trying to do with 4'33", and I haven't made an effort to understand (through reading his works, for example). But I no longer mock or scorn Cage. There's something there, and it's a display of real musical intelligence and bravery...

-Jason


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: John Cage [Re: izaldu] #1529889
10/07/10 01:08 AM
10/07/10 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by izaldu
Wr, I never said an artist can t create anything and call it "art", What i said is that not anything an artist creates must be considered art. What i see on 4.33 is an empty score.

"That analogy doesn't work, because, unlike our hearing, your eyes will not see various things happening in the empty space. But if you listen to 4'33", you will hear something other than silence.

Analogy works exactly the same, in my opinion. You will see something other than nothing. You always do. I really don't know where you a re going ... guess we will not agree on this!

I can´t hear the tube clip now, but will do later - thanks for the heads up.


If you want a visual analogy, it might be better to use the thing that inspired Cage himself - Rauschenberg's white paintings, which are canvases painted white.

I don't know if you really care enough about all this to listen, but if you do, this radio commentary from NPR in the US might explain it better than I have.



Re: John Cage [Re: Andromaque] #1529893
10/07/10 01:16 AM
10/07/10 01:16 AM
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This thread is proving my point - to me anyway. What an interesting and diverse reaction a thread on Cage has elicited! Even the people who dislike his music (or dislike whatever else about him) do their disliking in different ways.

If there was a serious thread on some other board about me, it would be very different: the likes would be all about the same, the dislikes would be all about the same, and there would be a total of two posts on each side of the discussion, every one of them lukewarm in tone. Except the one from my mother. smile


(I'm a piano teacher.)
Re: John Cage [Re: Andromaque] #1529895
10/07/10 01:22 AM
10/07/10 01:22 AM
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I wonder if anyone bothered to listen to the link I posted to the Litany for the Whale. Any comments about it?


Semipro Tech
Re: John Cage [Re: BDB] #1529901
10/07/10 01:39 AM
10/07/10 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by BDB
I wonder if anyone bothered to listen to the link I posted to the Litany for the Whale. Any comments about it?

It is, indeed, very beautiful.

Unfortunately, the link you provided only gave one minute of the twenty-five minute piece. And that was too short to determine if the beauty was due to the composer, or merely arose from the beautiful singing voice, if you know what I mean.

But, yes, yet another dimension to Cage. I completely agree with your statement about getting past 4'33".


-Jason


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: John Cage [Re: Andromaque] #1529911
10/07/10 02:03 AM
10/07/10 02:03 AM
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You have to click on the icon for the entire show, not the link to the recording. There is a short piece before you get the Cage, but the entire piece is there.


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Re: John Cage [Re: wr] #1529953
10/07/10 02:48 AM
10/07/10 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by wr
My opinion is that a person who slanders the intent of a serious composer is not really worth expending much energy on.
1. I take Cage seriously, most of the time.

2. The fact that a composer takes his work seriously does not oblige me to do the same. I know quite a number of people who take worthless work very seriously indeed. Seriousness of intent does not automatically equal worthwhile work.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
Re: John Cage [Re: Andromaque] #1529967
10/07/10 03:09 AM
10/07/10 03:09 AM
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Conversely, if a composer does not take his work seriously, the audience may want to take it seriously. Elsewhere, people are discussing Fossils from Carnival of the Animals, a tongue in cheek piece in which the composer spoofs one of his own works, both of which remain popular parts of the repertoire to this day.


Semipro Tech
Re: John Cage [Re: david_a] #1529985
10/07/10 03:45 AM
10/07/10 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by david_a
Originally Posted by wr
My opinion is that a person who slanders the intent of a serious composer is not really worth expending much energy on.
1. I take Cage seriously, most of the time.

2. The fact that a composer takes his work seriously does not oblige me to do the same. I know quite a number of people who take worthless work very seriously indeed. Seriousness of intent does not automatically equal worthwhile work.


How marvelous for you, to know the real value of all music, while those you know have to suffer worthless music in ignorance.

Regardless, your response wasn't about what I posted, which was about malign misrepresentation of a composer's intent, regardless of worth.


Last edited by wr; 10/07/10 03:49 AM.
Re: John Cage [Re: wr] #1529991
10/07/10 03:57 AM
10/07/10 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by wr


If you want a visual analogy, it might be better to use the thing that inspired Cage himself - Rauschenberg's white paintings, which are canvases painted white


I love Yves Kleins YKB blue series. Sure they are monochromatic, but they are alluring. The simplicity of a piece of work should not detract from it's beauty. Ligeti wrote a fascinating metronome piece called symphonic poem for 100 metronomes. Well worth a look on you tube!

M


Oz Marcus
Currently working on:
Schubert Impromptu in C minor - D899
Chopin Prelude Op28 No 15, nocturne Op48 no 1
Bach Prelude & Fuge WTC II No 12 in F minor
Aspiring to Rautavaara - Piano Sonata 2 - Fire Sermon
Re: John Cage [Re: Nikolas] #1530335
10/07/10 02:37 PM
10/07/10 02:37 PM
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tomasino Offline
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by tomasino

These answers are an evasion of what is perfectly obvious. It is so perfectly obvious that I'm amazed people don't say it right off the bat. This piece is about audience. It is decisively so, aggresively so, provocatively so, yes, even contemptously so. It is more overtly so than anything Milton Babbitt ever dreamed of.

It is about setting an audience up to be insulted--to get them to attend a concert, and then to have them sit in a trusting state of incomprehension, in a willingness to be tolerant, in a willingness to listen, in a willingness to withhold judgement, and in an unwillingness to believe that someone said to be highly regarded as an artist by his peers, would ask them to waste their time by seriously listening to nonsense. Gullible? Yes. The audience deserves better.

And the performers! Why does even one of them sit still for it? Ask yourself, after having spent years learning how to play--to play perhaps a magnificent Bach Fugue or a Rochmaninoff Concerto--is performing silently what you trained for? In other Cage pieces, is performing with a tuba on your head what you trained for? Did you practice for all those hours to play on a toy piano, or with a rubber duck? Is this fulfilling? Performers, too, deserve better.

And so WR, eventhough I take offense at Cage, I don’t mind at all being addressed as Rip Van Winkle, and I happily admit to being one of the graybeards on Piano Forum. But it shouldn’t be held against me, as my age has enabled me to achieve some wisdom--a certain kind of no-nonsense wisdom. I haven’t been asleep.

Tomasino
I don't mind your post, but I just highlighted a few words and phrases.

4'33" is one of the usual occasions where people actually take offense not only at a work (which for silence is doing great at that), but also at the composer, which seems rather amazing!

This is getting tiresome. I haven't bought a CD with 4'33" of course, and I haven't attended a concert with that on the program, I don't see the point right now. But I still try to stay away from slundering a composer...


Nikolas,

Thank you. Although I do understand you’re taking issue with me just a bit, still, I'm appreciative to have my strongest paragraph reposted right up there where everyone can readily read it again, or maybe read it for the first time. Hopefully they'll take a keener look. Perhaps they'll agree, too, that there was a recent period of music that was to some degree typified by composers who were overtly anti-audience, and question if this was a good thing for classical music.

To give some context, here's a quick review of what I think are the more salient points. Confining myself to the “cold war period,” I started with the anti-audience attitude exhibited at Darmstadt as early as 1947, then quoted Milton Babbitt, then cited the well documented bullying attitude of Boulez towards those who were not compliant, writing publicly that composers who were still composing tonally were "useless." I let it go at that, and then launched the paragraphs you've quoted above. I feel now that I should have asserted that this attitude had been gathering for a hundred years or more, and that it is the logical extension of “art for art’s sake.” I also suggested that doubtful readers might read Ross himself on the period. I'll be more specific this time: read Alex Ross, "the Rest is Noise," chapters 10 and 11. Background for my point of view is handled succinctly here in less than one-hundred pages. Also, the same information is scattered throughout Richard Taruskin's 5th volume of the "Oxford History of Western Music," "Music in the Late Twentieth Century." Solid ground is beneath my feet when I assert that some very influential composers adopted an anti-audience attitude. I feel it is an important issue, and performers and audiences ought to be aware of it.

For a number of reasons, the gathering of anti-audience forces came to a head in the cold war period, (I’ll be happy to go into my reasons for asserting this if anyone's curiosity is piqued). Anyway, there are many other examples I could have put forward, but I chose 4’33” as an obvious and egregious example. Because it was already under discussion, it provided an opportunity to write about an issue I've been mulling over for some time now.

I should end my response here, as you’ve indicated this is getting tiresome to you, and perhaps to others too, but you somewhat mildly suggest above that I “slandered” Cage. As this gives me pause and some discomfort, I feel you ought to hear me out: no lies were told, and no facts were fabricated, other than the strongly stated fact of my opinion. It’s clearly my opinion, as I signed my name. So it doesn’t qualify as the “gossip” kind of slander. Going on a bit, have I engaged in malicious intent? It’s a tough question, I take it seriously, and it needs to be parsed out. From my point of view, I asserted the fact of my opinion on the work of a man who willfully lived a public life. If others are thereby persuaded to think poorly of composer's who are anti-audience, then to that extent I’ve damaged Cage’s reputation, as well as the period's. Call it slander? If so, I’m sorry you feel that way. I disagree. Call it a too harshly negative criticism? OK, I'll accept that as your honest judgement--but I really don't understand why composers should not be subject to the same scrutiny and criticism as anyone else who puts themselves into the public arena?

Tomasino



"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do so with all thy might." Ecclesiastes 9:10

Re: John Cage [Re: wr] #1530387
10/07/10 04:11 PM
10/07/10 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by wr
Originally Posted by david_a
Originally Posted by wr
My opinion is that a person who slanders the intent of a serious composer is not really worth expending much energy on.
1. I take Cage seriously, most of the time.

2. The fact that a composer takes his work seriously does not oblige me to do the same. I know quite a number of people who take worthless work very seriously indeed. Seriousness of intent does not automatically equal worthwhile work.


How marvelous for you, to know the real value of all music, while those you know have to suffer worthless music in ignorance.

Regardless, your response wasn't about what I posted, which was about malign misrepresentation of a composer's intent, regardless of worth.

(Knowing the real value of SOME music is not a claim to know the real value of all of it.)

Stated intent doesn't always match real intent, even among persons of integrity. And when something is consistently taken in the wrong way, that could be because the real & honest intent has turned out to be a mistake in judgment.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
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