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Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: sullivang] #1529861
10/07/10 01:15 AM
10/07/10 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
I've now tested an RM3-based piano (CA93), and it does NOT emulate double-escapement.

Come on guys, call me stupid, but I don't understand why everything that is already known for a long time is being discussed all over again here.

Just a simple reference will do (sorry for the Google Franglais, it mentions 'double-exhaust' smirk : anybody interested in making a decent translation?):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1492875.html#Post1493614


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C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
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Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: TADutchman] #1529870
10/07/10 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by TADutchman

Come on guys, call me stupid, but I don't understand why everything that is already known for a long time is being discussed all over again here.


I didn't intend to "discuss" it. I merely mentioned it, briefly, to add on to Dr Popper's list of plus's and minuses.
That's all.

That post you referred to is long. I searched for "escapement", "triple", and "sensor", but got no hits. I haven't read the post yet though. (and I had never seen that post before)

Greg.

Last edited by sullivang; 10/07/10 01:32 AM.
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: sullivang] #1529874
10/07/10 01:38 AM
10/07/10 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
I haven't read the post yet though. (and I had never seen that post before)

Okay, I see: I can assure you that, although there's quite some text, it's at least entertaining to read. grin


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Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: sullivang] #1529876
10/07/10 01:44 AM
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I must admit until you posted the detailed description I wasn't 100% sure of what you were on about. I'm pretty sure I've taken advantage of the feature on the CP1 without realizing it.

Originally Posted by sullivang


I didn't intend to "discuss" it. I merely mentioned it, briefly, to add on to Dr Popper's list of plus's and minuses.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1529877
10/07/10 01:45 AM
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Dr Popper,
I suspect that if you do that test I outlined on your CP1, it will fail. I don't think the CP1 is a tri-sensor action. (I haven't tried it, but I just think Yamaha would have mentioned it if it was)

Greg. (the tri-sensor Grim Reaper ;^)

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: sullivang] #1529925
10/07/10 03:21 AM
10/07/10 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
I've now tested an RM3-based piano (CA93), and it does NOT emulate double-escapement. I assume the MP10 will be the same.

I measured the total key travel at 11m, and the damping point at 5mm/45% release.

Greg.


Glad to know this.
This is quite the same as my keyboard after I readjusted it.
However, because there is a soft pillow in the junction between hammer and key this will depress when playing fast.
So the dynamic release level is not necessarily the same as the static.

Therefore it would be interesting to know about the playability in comparison to your MP9000 or PX330.

Peter


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Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1529937
10/07/10 03:33 AM
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Peter,
I didn't know that - that's very interesting.

To see whether it would be any different for rapidly repeated notes, we could simply use a very rigid stopper to restrict the release of the key. I think that's a good objective way of testing it. There's no way I will be attempting to do this test in a store, though. ;^) If anyone does this test, please report back.

Greg.

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1529958
10/07/10 03:57 AM
10/07/10 03:57 AM
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I think the basic questions is; when you actually play the instrument with rapid repeating notes, do you experience any limitations / drawback in the keyboards performance ? If so ; does a 3-sensor keybed perform any better in practice (not on paper) ? If not - then what's the problem ? If you feel the 3-sensor version DOES indeed relieve you of some limitations that the RM3 poses to your playing, then that board is a better choice for you.

In other words ; play the instruments in the way you would be playing them in practice and see what you like best. I think that may be a better approach then the clinical trail & error tests that are being performed now...

So if someone could test, or already say by experience, that a 3 sensor key is really better for the experienced player in real-life practice, that would be nice. If it made no difference at all in your opinion, that would also be welcome information. In fact, 3 sensor could be more more marketing talk than an actual noticeable difference...who knows.


Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1529963
10/07/10 04:03 AM
10/07/10 04:03 AM
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Peter,
Do you mean the pad that the capstans press against? If so, I don't think there's much "give" in those pads at all. (also, as they age, little pits develop in them, which would reduce the amount of give further. Fortunately, it is trivial to adjust the capstans to compensate for these slight depressions that develop in these pads)
I'm assumning that the RM3 pads have a similar design to my MP9000. (looking at the photo of the RM3 action, it does look very similar to the MP9000 indeed)

Greg.

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: JFP] #1529965
10/07/10 04:09 AM
10/07/10 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JFP
I think the basic questions is; when you actually play the instrument with rapid repeating notes, do you experience any limitations / drawback in the keyboards performance ? If so ; does a 3-sensor keybed perform any better in practice (not on paper) ? If not - then what's the problem ? If you feel the 3-sensor version DOES indeed relieve you of some limitations that the RM3 poses to your playing, then that board is a better choice for you.

In other words ; play the instruments in the way you would be playing them in practice and see what you like best. I think that may be a better approach then the clinical trail & error tests that are being performed now...

So if someone could test, or already say by experience, that a 3 sensor key is really better for the experienced player in real-life practice, that would be nice. If it made no difference at all in your opinion, that would also be welcome information. In fact, 3 sensor could be more more marketing talk than an actual noticeable difference...who knows.



Ah, the reasonable voice of balanced logic; like a breeze of fresh air.

The trouble is that very few of us "play our instruments in the way we would be playing them in practice" by hanging out for an hour in a noisy store environment with different acoustics than home or gigs.

There was a dealer that used to deliver an HP-207 and a CA-91 to your home and then come back two weeks later to pick up the one you didn't want to keep. Too bad this approach doesn't seem to be very popular with the current generation of instruments. I suppose one could purchase an MP-10 and a RD-700NX from two dealers with generous return policies and create your own program...

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: JFP] #1529968
10/07/10 04:09 AM
10/07/10 04:09 AM
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I think this 3 sensor thingy is a technical method that improves repetition.
It has the advantage that repetitions can be played without damping the string and with only partial key-releases.
For this playing style


this should be very helpful.
So we should give her a Casio Tri Sensor, a Yamaha GH3 and a Roland PHA3 and a Kawai R?3 and ask her what she prefers ;-)

Last edited by hpeterh; 10/07/10 04:16 AM.

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Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1529970
10/07/10 04:14 AM
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That was beautiful. I have a feeling that someone with her chops wouldn't waste their time with the kind of toys we all are buying.

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1529972
10/07/10 04:17 AM
10/07/10 04:17 AM
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Exactly - I posted a link to the same work just recently in another thread! (different performance, but same work, and same pianist! smile

If any digital piano is capable of that, they should put the clip on the product's web site!

Greg.
p.s I found a clip of a male playing the same work - he was playing even faster, HOWEVER, it was not as clean and consistent.

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: theJourney] #1529983
10/07/10 04:34 AM
10/07/10 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by theJourney

Ah, the reasonable voice of balanced logic; like a breeze of fresh air.


Yes, I agree with this completely. The work I have done is the easy bit. (but at least it's OBJECTIVE).

Greg.

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1529988
10/07/10 04:48 AM
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Btw, I might compare legato behaviour of my Casio to the MP9000. Just maybe, I will be able to demonstrate an improvement with the Casio, due to the fact that the top sensor is higher up than it is on the MP9000. I will be able to control each other's sounds with MIDI, too. I don't know if/when I will do this. If there is a difference, it may be that it's only noticable for sounds with a rapid release, which may exclude acoustic piano, in which case it wouldn't be very relevant for most of us.

Greg.

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: sullivang] #1529990
10/07/10 04:53 AM
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But I'd have to get it out of the road case to do that wink
I'll give it a go at the Newport Arms tomorrow.


Originally Posted by sullivang
Dr Popper,
I suspect that if you do that test I outlined on your CP1, it will fail. I don't think the CP1 is a tri-sensor action. (I haven't tried it, but I just think Yamaha would have mentioned it if it was)

Greg. (the tri-sensor Grim Reaper ;^)


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: Deffie] #1529992
10/07/10 05:04 AM
10/07/10 05:04 AM
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My legato testing won't work, because it also depends on key travel velocity. It's very tricky business. I think I will leave the rest up to good pianists.

I don't see what is wrong with my statement that the RM3 lacks a feature - it's just a simple truth. I did not say it was a terrible omission. It may well be a box that Kawai have decided is not worth ticking. However, if that's the case, it might be prudent for Kawai to give some kind of an explanation, because if I can buy a Casio for 1/3rd or 1/4th the price of an MP10, that DOES tick this box, ON PAPER it looks a bit strange IMHO. I would expect the MP10's action to be better IN EVERY WAY to my Casio.

Greg.

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: sullivang] #1529993
10/07/10 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
Exactly - I posted a link to the same work just recently in another thread! (different performance, but same work, and same pianist! smile


Yes, of course I know. I remembered it and tried to look it up and then found this by accident.
She is older here, but I think she further improved in playing...
Admirable.

BTW, I dont think it makes sense to compare MP10 and Casio.
The closest competitor -and with double escapement- will probably be the RD700NX or the FP7's successor. For me that are the next test candidates.

Last edited by hpeterh; 10/07/10 07:07 AM.

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Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: hpeterh] #1529999
10/07/10 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by hpeterh


BTW, I dont think it makes sense to compare MP10 and Casio.
The closest competitor -and with double escapement- will probably be the RD700NX. For me that is the next test candidate.


A grand piano has double escapement.
My Casio has double escapement.
The Kawai RM3 actions do NOT have double escapement.

That is all I am saying.

Greg.

Re: New Kawai MP6 and MP10 Stage Pianos [Re: sullivang] #1530009
10/07/10 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
... it might be prudent for Kawai to give some kind of an explanation, because if I can buy a Casio for 1/3rd or 1/4th the price of an MP10, that DOES tick this box, ON PAPER it looks a bit strange IMHO. I would expect the MP10's action to be better IN EVERY WAY to my Casio.

Greg.


Including value for money?

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