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#1521442 - 09/23/10 09:54 PM Taubman/Golandsky methods  
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I'm just wondering, how many teachers and students here are teaching/learning these playing techniques/methods?

If not, how many of hear of it?

What are your thoughts of it?


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#1521728 - 09/24/10 09:51 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Amazing! 50 odd people read this post but no one knows about Taubman or Golandsky.

Do you know what you are teaching your students or being taught to curve the fingers or twist the wrists? fatigue and injuries. Really, find out about Taubman and Golandsky. There's nothing to loose. There are a few videos on youtube.


Be your ♮ self.

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Studying:
Beethoven: Pathetique Sonata [Opus 13] (Cm)
Bach: Prelude & Fugue No. 3 [BWV848] (C#)
Mozart: Sonata [KV330] (C)
Chopin: Torrent Etude [Opus 10] (Dbm)
#1521754 - 09/24/10 10:37 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Simply because no one replies doesn't mean we don't know if it. It's been around a while. I teach arm weight and release of tension, but I did not attend any taubman workshops.


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#1521770 - 09/24/10 11:11 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Originally Posted by Tubbie0075
Amazing! 50 odd people read this post but no one knows about Taubman or Golandsky.

Do you know what you are teaching your students or being taught to curve the fingers or twist the wrists? fatigue and injuries. Really, find out about Taubman and Golandsky. There's nothing to loose. There are a few videos on youtube.
There is a lot to lose.

People (at least me) didn't reply because they kind of sensed somehow that you weren't asking because you were curious, but because you wanted to promote.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
#1521774 - 09/24/10 11:17 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Originally Posted by Tubbie0075
Amazing! 50 odd people read this post but no one knows about Taubman or Golandsky.

Do you know what you are teaching your students or being taught to curve the fingers or twist the wrists? fatigue and injuries. Really, find out about Taubman and Golandsky. There's nothing to loose. There are a few videos on youtube.

So, are you selling Golandsky classes? Of course, most teachers know about arm weight, tension, release, etc.. This isn't unique to Taubman or Golandsky. And, as with most things in performance art, there are differing opinions on technique.


"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
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#1521785 - 09/24/10 11:49 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Originally Posted by Tubbie0075
Amazing! 50 odd people read this post but no one knows about Taubman or Golandsky.

Do you know what you are teaching your students or being taught to curve the fingers or twist the wrists? fatigue and injuries. Really, find out about Taubman and Golandsky. There's nothing to loose. There are a few videos on youtube.


I dont know why but I wanted get all stabby when I read that post.

Also I suddenly had an urge to buy a Kirby Vaccuum.


Currently learning composition:

Some of my compositions
#1521966 - 09/24/10 05:04 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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I live in Australia and there's no Golandsky workshops or classes to attend here, certainly nothing for me to sell.

I'm an adult student and recently returned to piano lessons. My current teacher mentioned about it. Other than YouTube and Internet there's not much for me to find out.

Since many people in this forum are from the America, I thought I would get some responses. Perhaps it was the way I ask that seems to trigger annoyance. I was frustrated no one would tell me more, so I made the second post.

It seems like people do know it but still refused to share. Is there something bad about the Golandsky Institute I need to know?


Be your ♮ self.

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Studying:
Beethoven: Pathetique Sonata [Opus 13] (Cm)
Bach: Prelude & Fugue No. 3 [BWV848] (C#)
Mozart: Sonata [KV330] (C)
Chopin: Torrent Etude [Opus 10] (Dbm)
#1522212 - 09/25/10 01:03 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Tubbie, your posts do not match. Your second post's structure and tone are most definitely those of a sales pitch. Scare tactic, veiled promise of a secret solution to the scare, closing with a bread crumb for the treasure hunt. If you are not here to sell courses, well, you should be. smile

People "refusing to share" means they are politely refraining from saying anything. You are going to have to fill in the blanks for yourself.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
#1522246 - 09/25/10 03:16 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Hi Tubbie, you might be interested in this previous thread on pianoworld:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...2/topic/013997/Number/0/site_id/1#import


I'm studying with the methods taught by Australia's Max Cooke. Have a look at his 'Tone Touch and Technique' which is two books and has an accompanying DVD.

Many teachers in Australia use his books, although sadly I know from personal experience that many don't fully understand the techniques themselves.


Last edited by Daffodil; 09/25/10 03:20 AM.

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#1522251 - 09/25/10 04:00 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Thank you Daffodil. That is a really good post to read.

To the rest of the readers here who are offended or being "polite" (as david_a puts it) I apologize for the misunderstanding. Can someone show me how to remove this post from the forum? Boy am I sorry to have ever asked.

Have a good and productive weekend!


Be your ♮ self.

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Studying:
Beethoven: Pathetique Sonata [Opus 13] (Cm)
Bach: Prelude & Fugue No. 3 [BWV848] (C#)
Mozart: Sonata [KV330] (C)
Chopin: Torrent Etude [Opus 10] (Dbm)
#1522266 - 09/25/10 06:03 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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What you also have to remember is that just because there have been 50 "views" that doesn't mean they were piano teachers, or regular posters to this forum, or people with the time to answer, or people with what they thought was something significant to say. You need to give a request time, sometimes. For example I've been out working all day and have only just got home and logged on.

The other suggestion is to do a search. There have been many threads on Taubman in the past, and you might get a better feel for what's around.



Du holde Kunst...
#1523347 - 09/27/10 12:14 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Hello Tubbie,

I teach and am still being taught the Taubman Approach.
(We have only one fully acredited teacher over here in Australia and I learn from her).

As an adult I became injured (carpal tunnel) and retrained with my current teacher. I went on to finish my Performance Diploma and am now currently teaching whilst studying piano pedagogy and continuing with my Taubman studies.

I found great relief by using the Taubman Approach and did not need to have the operation suggested by the doctors and my virtuosity at the piano has come ahead in leaps and bounds.

So in my opinion, I give this technique a definite thumbs up, and I am very grateful to Dorothy Taubman and Edna Golandsky for their efforts.

Without them (and my wonderful teacher), I do believe that I would not be playing the piano now never mind having passed my exam.

HTH,
Grace


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#1523384 - 09/27/10 01:27 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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I know many people swear by Taubman, and while it may have some good elements, what turns me off about it is the way it has developed over the years into sort of a cult following or "secret method" of piano playing, deemed by Taubman teachers as the "Only right way to play the piano".

While it very well may be - from a purely physiological standpoint - it must be kept in mind that in piano playing (Unlike sports), the physicality of it is only a means to an end, where in sports the physical aspect is an end in and of itself. The end result is the sound and artistry produced from the instrument, and whatever movements get the job done are satisfactory.

#1523386 - 09/27/10 01:42 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Opus_Maximus]  
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Originally Posted by Opus_Maximus
While it very well may be - from a purely physiological standpoint - it must be kept in mind that in piano playing (Unlike sports), the physicality of it is only a means to an end, where in sports the physical aspect is an end in and of itself. The end result is the sound and artistry produced from the instrument, and whatever movements get the job done are satisfactory.
That's well put but I'd have to say performance is sports with a layer of art on top. Though some of its claims are dubious, Taubman is excellent. The wrong movement just won't sound right, that is why they claim Taubman is just an analysis of how all great pianists play.

#1523412 - 09/27/10 02:57 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: chopin_r_us]  
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Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
... that is why they claim Taubman is just an analysis of how all great pianists play.
Who went out to do the analysis of all great pianists? I hope whoever it was they got home in time for dinner. smile


(I'm a piano teacher.)
#1523416 - 09/27/10 03:04 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Opus_Maximus]  
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Originally Posted by Opus_Maximus
a cult following or "secret method" of piano playing, deemed by Taubman teachers as the "Only right way to play the piano"


Well, there's nothing secretive about it. I think once you learn it, it's just difficult to switch to a different technique.


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#1523476 - 09/27/10 05:03 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: chopin_r_us]  
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Quote
The wrong movement just won't sound right, that is why they claim Taubman is just an analysis of how all great pianists play.


This implies that there is only ONE right movement per passage - suitable to all pianists - that will make it sound right, and if you watch 10 great pianists playing the same passage, their movements and gestures will all respectively differ according to their hand structures and musical conception of the passage.

I remember someone on this forum a few years ago (I don't remember who it was, but I think it could be found with a search if someone really had enough time), who claimed there were studying with a renowned Taubmann teacher and was happy with the results, but not happy with the fact that this teacher was saying that Rubinstein and Horowtiz were "playing the piano completely, totally wrong"

I also find it a bit strange that both Dorthy Taubmann and Edna Golandsky - the two greatest champions of the method - have (to my knowledge), not a single recording available to their credit.

Last edited by Opus_Maximus; 09/27/10 05:16 AM.
#1523480 - 09/27/10 05:09 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Just to add to what I was saying before, it is possible that sometimes the movement that is more difficult physically, or "incorrect" will yield the more artistic result. Look at the physical awkwardness of a Gould, Serkin, or Pogorelich at the piano. Sometimes comfort and agility can be sacrificed for a certain sound. Obviously these are idiosyncratic extremes, but still...

#1523492 - 09/27/10 06:06 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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I think there are some serious students who have been helped by Taubman style teaching. Whether that help came about by design or by accident I'm not able to discern.

But... Regardless of whose course is being presented, there is a fairly large "club" of people in Piano Land who are after just one thing. They are waiting, pencil poised above notebook and lecture recorder running, for somebody, anybody, (preferably with impressive credentials but anybody will do in a pinch), to give them THE ANSWER so they can write it down and keep it for when they need it.

Any piano teacher or piano organization that capitalizes on this fact by going on tour and proclaiming their version of THE ANSWER to each local chapter of the "answer club", whether accidentally or on purpose, will probably make out just fine.

Last edited by david_a; 09/27/10 06:07 AM.

(I'm a piano teacher.)
#1523497 - 09/27/10 06:27 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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opus maximus...Pogo was not physically awkward at the piano. He had one of the most stunning examples ever of what we call piano technique. He happens to be very tall with massive hands... watch his 3rd Chopin Scherzo video or Scarlatti to see what I mean. Playing piano was like breathing for Pogo in his heyday. He had comfort and agility at the age of 20 that few pianists ever approach at all over their careers.

Aside from that, I agree with you.
Taubman/Golandsky are laughing all the way to the bank selling their $500 set of 10 DVDs.

Their work is widely recognized and touted by amateur pianists the world over. I can assure you, it gets very little, if any attention in professional circles. Simply put, all of that rotation will hurt your playing.

Some principles of the method are used by professionals. However, T/G places too great an emphasis on these principles without TOUCHING the more important aspects of technique.

It is a lucrative scam.

I studied with a wonderful Taubmann teacher for four years. She worked frequently with Edna before eventually abandoning the method upon realizing its inadequacy.

Please don't take this post personally. Taubmann can really be the right thing for some people. If you want to take your playing to the highest level of refinement and sophistication,you're going to need a LOT more than Taubmann.

It's all good though wink The overwhelming majority of people who study the piano have better things to do than develop their playing to the highest level. Day jobs. Families and houses to look after.

Taubmann can genuinely be a liberating and empowering journey for many of these people.

I also object to their slick marketing. Virtuosity in a Box? $500?

Come on. Great pianists know darn well that virtuosity doesn't come in a box for an exorbitant amount of money.

Folks please make sure to check my youtube channel before attacking my credentials, technical or otherwise.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=classicaluploads&aq=f

As DavidA says, there are many people in the world waiting for a magical cure... a simple answer.

Taubman/Golandsky prey upon the naivate of such people. They are slick businesspeople, and NOT great pedagogues.

#1523526 - 09/27/10 08:13 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Of course one of their most dubious claims is that their DVD's are worth $500.

#1523718 - 09/27/10 01:46 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Opus_Maximus]  
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Originally Posted by Opus_Maximus
I also find it a bit strange that both Dorthy Taubmann and Edna Golandsky - the two greatest champions of the method - have (to my knowledge), not a single recording available to their credit.


You can't make that comparison. Teaching and performing are two totally different skills. Some of the best pianists in the world probably can't teach at all, and vice versa.

I've observed a few of Golandsky's master classes. She seems to know what she's talking about, and her comments are quite insightful.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
#1523725 - 09/27/10 01:59 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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"Seems to know what she's talking about, and her comments are quite insightful" describes any good piano teacher anywhere.

It's a great leap from there to the kind of claims that are made by her and on her behalf.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
#1523757 - 09/27/10 02:51 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: JustAnotherPianist]  
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Originally Posted by JustAnotherPianist

Taubman/Golandsky prey upon the naivate of such people. They are slick businesspeople, and NOT great pedagogues.
I think you'll find Taubman is already recognized around the world as a great pedagogue. Your performance of Chopin's B minor is a real achievement but doesn't really come into it. Come back uninjured in 30 years time and maybe then judgements could be made.

#1523790 - 09/27/10 03:57 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: chopin_r_us]  
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Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
I think you'll find Taubman is already recognized around the world as a great pedagogue.
Recognized by great pianists, or recognized by the notebook-toting quick-fix crowd mentioned above?

The pedagogy lecture circuit becomes its own self-sustaining inward-looking culture after a while, separate from the rest of the world. The opinion of persons inside that culture is not particularly relevant.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
#1523796 - 09/27/10 04:14 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: david_a]  
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Originally Posted by david_a
The pedagogy lecture circuit becomes its own self-sustaining inward-looking culture after a while, separate from the rest of the world. The opinion of persons inside that culture is not particularly relevant.
Bit of a sweeping generalization?

#1523909 - 09/27/10 07:01 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: chopin_r_us]  
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Thanks, chopin_r_us
It's the the Bb minor I've got there at the moment. I'll be putting the B minor on there soon, though.

As I've said, I studied Taubman for four years with a well-regarded Taubman teacher. What I am saying is that I could never have reached this level of playing with Taubman technique alone.

Your implication that my technique could be a ticking time bomb to RSIs in x years is based on a complete lack of knowledge of my playing mechanism and practice habits....what's up with that? It takes a great deal of strength to be able to play in a relaxed enough way to tackle the piano repertoire with finesse.

Building up this strength is a slow process which does not involve anything to do with Taubman principles. It's a process which does not involve the somewhat more immediate rewards promised by T/G.

Once developed, this strength allows pianists to move with great freedom. Rotation is seldom used, because it is seldom needed. It is strength in the muscles of the palms, and strength in the muscles of the belly of the forearm.

#1523923 - 09/27/10 07:29 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: chopin_r_us]  
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Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Originally Posted by david_a
The pedagogy lecture circuit becomes its own self-sustaining inward-looking culture after a while, separate from the rest of the world. The opinion of persons inside that culture is not particularly relevant.
Bit of a sweeping generalization?
Yup. No apologies though, because it's a pretty accurate one. Nobody is stepping up with examples of major well-known performers who promote Taubman.


(I'm a piano teacher.)
#1523938 - 09/27/10 07:51 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Rather an insightful generalization at that.

#1523965 - 09/27/10 09:13 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: david_a]  
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Originally Posted by david_a
Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Originally Posted by david_a
The pedagogy lecture circuit becomes its own self-sustaining inward-looking culture after a while, separate from the rest of the world. The opinion of persons inside that culture is not particularly relevant.
Bit of a sweeping generalization?
Yup. No apologies though, because it's a pretty accurate one. Nobody is stepping up with examples of major well-known performers who promote Taubman.


I think perhaps that this is more due to the fact that many teachers teach relaxation and arm weight without being Taubman followers, than it has to do with a criticism of the technique. Or in other words, they don't have the corner market on playing without pain and with freedom.


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#1524083 - 09/28/10 02:43 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Justanotherpianist - if you are saying your playing has Taubman as a foundation - then I agree with the rest of your post. If you've turned your back on it then...

Not that Taubman started anything. All those teachers or 'quick fix crowd' as Dave calls them who spoke about a singing touch taught the same thing. Here's the Lhevinnes:
Quote
Again as the hand descends, as large a surface of the fingertip as feasible engages the key, and the wrist is so loose that it normally sinks [I appreciate not Taubman] below the level of the keyboard. Observe your hand sensations very carefully. The tone is produced in the downward swing of the hand...The other notes, if melody is to be played legato, must be taken with the fingers near the keys, raising or dropping the wrist according to the design of the melody.

#1524125 - 09/28/10 06:10 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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I cannot say my playing is based on a Taubman foundation. If a given passage calls for a modicum of rotation I am by no means afraid to use rotation.

I would say the foundation of my technique is NOT Taubman....but I use my Taubman training as an auxiliary force when it is needed. And don't get me wrong, it IS useful, in fact more than useful, it is ESSENTIAL for certain kinds of passage. But these passages are rare...there is ONE of them in the entire Rachmaninov Third Concerto.

The majority of playing requires a different approach to technique. In the words of my girlfriend, who is a MONSTER pianist, 'you don't want movement that's not intrinsically related to the passage you are playing'.

The strength which I described in my previous post is what is required in order to have the utmost control over the ballance of textures at the piano. This strength is developed by doing things at the piano which would make a Taubman teacher cringe.

Avoiding injury at the piano does not require a Taubman technique. In order to avoid injury, we must have good practice habits and a fundamental understanding of what RSI's are and what causes them.

I have yet to see a hardcore Taubman adherent produce a great recording. You will find in the professional circuit that something like the approach I describe is the norm. There is a range on the professional spectrum, no doubt.

But you don't get many people who obsess about rotation to the degree that Taubman/Golandsky do.

Rotation can be a useful tool in certain situations, but it simply isn't the cornerstone which T/G think it is.

#1525002 - 09/29/10 01:25 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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@ JustAnotherPianist

Hey I liked your Chopin Sonata Recording thank you for posting it!

As I was watching it I thought... I know this guy from somewhere... then it hit me... Is this guy from the movie Battlefield Earth?

[Linked Image]




Currently learning composition:

Some of my compositions
#1526019 - 10/01/10 03:50 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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There's a pedagogy lecture circuit?


Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com
#1526070 - 10/01/10 07:46 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Elissa Milne]  
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Originally Posted by Elissa Milne
There's a pedagogy lecture circuit?

You're on the antipodean bump of same wink
no?


[Linked Image]
Composers manufacture a product that is universally deemed superfluous—at least until their music enters public consciousness, at which point people begin to say that they could not live without it.
Alex Ross.
#1526078 - 10/01/10 08:10 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Canonie]  
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Elissa Milne Offline
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Elissa Milne  Offline
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Originally Posted by Canonie
Originally Posted by Elissa Milne
There's a pedagogy lecture circuit?

You're on the antipodean bump of same wink
no?

Apparently so!! I certainly do get around a lot (in the last 12 months in any case), so if talking to piano teachers frequently means you are part of a circuit..... YEP!!!!

But the term "Pedagogy lecture circuit" sound so... organised, so..... conspiracy theorist! Here in Australia there is one biannual Piano Pedagogy Conference, so I guess that would qualify, and then there are state Music Teacher Association conferences, also usually biannual, so maybe they are part of the 'circuit' as well? (That means there would be, on average, 3 or 4 piano teacher conferences held in all of Australia/New Zealand each year, and most teachers would only be able to access 1 conference per annum.)

Then there are the in-store events that print music retailers hold, but I'm not sure that is so much part of a 'pedagogy lecture circuit' as it is about product education and promotion - letting teachers know what's new that they can use in their teaching, what new music has been composed and arranged, etc.

And then there are events put on by the examination boards, but again, not so much pedagogy, more about the latest syllabus developments.

The original reference to a circuit made it sound as if there is this well-worn track that shysters can plod around fleecing piano teachers as they go. Does Australia just not boast a lot of shysters, or is our circuit not circuitous enough, or.....?


Teacher, Composer, Writer, Speaker
Working with Hal Leonard, Alfred, Faber, and Australian Music Examination Board
Music in syllabuses by ABRSM, AMEB, Trinity Guildhall, ANZCA, NZMEB, and more
www.elissamilne.wordpress.com
#1527255 - 10/03/10 06:36 AM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Elissa Milne]  
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Originally Posted by Elissa Milne
The original reference to a circuit made it sound as if there is this well-worn track that shysters can plod around fleecing piano teachers as they go. Does Australia just not boast a lot of shysters, or is our circuit not circuitous enough, or.....?
My guess is the 'circuit' only really exists in someone's imagination. I've attended a number of master classes and can't think of one that didn't have something valuable to offer. Maybe someone needs to get out more.

#1528292 - 10/04/10 10:11 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Tubbie0075]  
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Kansas
tubbie.. you might seek info in the Pianists' corner. there seem to be fans there.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
#1528306 - 10/04/10 10:47 PM Re: Taubman/Golandsky methods [Re: Elissa Milne]  
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Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted by Elissa Milne
There's a pedagogy lecture circuit?


There is in the USA. At the major conferences (MTNA and NCKP), one sees the same names over and over and over again. Breaking into the circuit is difficult. I've applied to present at MTNA at least five times on three different topics and have yet to be selected. Other friends of mine have had similar luck getting a slot to present.

What's worse is the divide between performers, college faculty, and teachers of precollege students in the US. It's rare to find a performer with the local symphony visiting area schools and giving additional recitals and masterclasses, and colleges tend to trade faculty recitals with each other, rarely inviting concert pianists (whose fees are often too high) for concerts or masterclasses.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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