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Brian,
Assessing the feel of the action is very tricky I think. As others have said elsewhere, even changing the sound can change the subjective feel of the keys. All I can say, so far, is that the PX-330 action feels very nice. I don't have any quality problems at all, either. (fingers crossed!) I didn't know it was possible for such a lightweight instrument to feel as "solid" as this.

I'm no glissando freak, but it seems easier to do glissandos on the Casio than my old Kawai. I saw how easy that German chap ("MusikSchmidt") made glissandos look on this new Casio action, so I was curious to see whether it was mainly his skill or something to do with the action. I think the action really does make a difference. (No idea how it compares to a real piano in this regard)

Greg.

Greg,

Thanx. A very frank review. I'll take it as one coming from a fairly satisfied customer. The problems you mention, namely the pedal quality, has been mentioned earlier and it was suggested to go in for the 3 pedal unit and stand if possible.

I think Yamaha needs to wake up to this and give the DGX 630/640 their GH or GH3 keys.

Brian

Brian,
I think you may be confusing me with Pete - Pete has given the thorough review, and mentioned the pedals.

Cheers,
Greg.

Not at all Greg. I did mean that someone else has mentioned about the pedals (not you).

Yeah sorry I hadn't intended that to be a "review" as such, as I don't feel I have the expertise to do that. It was more a case of vocalising my thought process and how the PX-330 satisfied what I was thinking. I actually did get a little conned when I bought this DP. The store was a grubby little place that didn't even have the PX-330 on display, just the PX-130. I was about to buy the CDP-200 when I saw the PX-130 and asked about it. One touch of the keys convinced me this was a much better way to go. The salesman assured me that the PX-330 did everything the CDP-200 did, but more. In fact that's not true at all, the two are completely different. I bought the PX-330 sight unseen but I was very close to taking it back when I realised the two DPs weren't essentially the same, but as it's turned out it's been a blessing in disguise. Many of the "features" I was looking at were learning type functions I would very rapidly grow out of. On the other hand yes I am quite happy with this purchase so far and feel it should be a while until I grow out of it.

Pete

No. I have now four of them (good ones and bad ones) and also my USB soundcard disassembled and examined them ;-)
Even active hubs are designed this way that they can also work in passive mode and have a direct ground and power connection. The bvetter ones have a diode and self recovering fuse in the line.
However, inside is quite often a 10µF capacitor that can help to filter the noise.

Mostly the noise is high frequency common mode noise. So it might not be absolutely necessary to have insulation. A current compensated filter coil in the ground and +5V line + 2 x 10µF capacitors (double PI-Filter) can probably solve the problem. The data lines dont have much current and dont contribute to the noise much. quite often they are insulated with capacitors.

I am goingt to design and test such a circuit and when it works I sell them for 50$ on Ebay, making a small bussiness until one of the big players takes over and steals the idea and sells them for 79.99$ .... ;-)

Possibly there is a cheaper solution: A 100µF capacitor soldered into the soundcard could reduce the alternating current of the ground line and reduce ground noise this way.

Peter

I guess I'll chime in here regarding the PX 330. I've had mine for several months now.
I guess I was one of the lucky ones since mine arrived (from Kraft Music) in perfect shape and remains that way.
As for clunking or clacking, I guess the keys clunk when I've got the headphones on and others can hear it, but since I can't, it doesn't bother me a bit.
I had a YPG 635 for a few months and frankly haven't noticed any difference with the weight or response of the keys.
I liked the tones and the rhythms of the Yamaha a little better than the Casio but the speakers were harsher, IMO, than the Casio. That being said, I've hooked up a set of the Logitech 2.1 speakers to the Casio. Granted, they are really meant to be computer speakers but they make a huge difference and probably would have done the same with the Yammie.
As I mentioned in a previous thread somewhere, the Yammie did not sustain in the left hand while in split mode and that was a huge deal for me, so I bought the Casio which does.
I'm one of those rare ones, I guess, that really likes all the "bells and whistles". I use the built in rhythms and the different sounds and layer, split, tweak, and anything else I can think of, so the PX 330 fits the bill in that respect. Also, I've got a few synth modules hooked up as well that I can play alone or layer with the keyboard--great fun!
I ran Pianoteq for a while until my computer crashed last week and I lost the registration number to reload. Liked that too.
Every so often I go to local stores and try out all the keyboards I can--saw an FP4 that I really liked--but really I can't justify spending an extra thousand since I'm more of a hacker than a player.
I toyed with the idea of hooking up a Roland KC350 amp but I'm in a quite small apartment and I think it'd blow me out of the place. My neighbors are extremely tolerant of me, though, so I'm still debating.
So in conclusion, and sorry this is so long, I'd have to say I'm very satisfied with the PX330 and will probably hang on to it for a while (but I reserve the right to keep looking for the next one!)

I've posted elsewhere on these forums about the PX330.

Bottom line it's a great value DP at its price point.

I also have a Kawai CN33, more than twice the price, as a comparison. The Casio keys are lighter, and looser, but the touch and playability is fine. I have three pairs of clacking keys that developed a few months after I got the PX330, but my warranty is 3 years, and it doesn't interfere with playing. The piano sounds are fine through headphones and also an external audio system, but not so good using the internal speakers on, say, two-thirds volume or more.

It's a fun DP to play around with, although many of the other voices as mentioned by others are not so good. There's a whole bunch of unusual ethnic instrumental sounds too if you want to explore non-western music.

As a practice DP, portable enough for lugging around, it's probably unbeatable at the price.

To repeat myself it's great value at its price point.

Can anyone elaborate on what is meant by "clacking keys" or similar descriptions? I haven't noticed anything like that but would like to keep an eye out for signs of it.

While not the same thing, I've heard people talk about the noisy keys in some DPs. I've noticed that on the Yamaha played by Bill Hilton here http://www.bluespiano.tv/ Maybe it's just the way he's playing it, maybe Bill has worn out his keyboard but I certainly noticed it. The Casio most certainly doesn't make this same clicking noise. Being a mechanical movement there is, of course, some noise, but I would think if you could silence the strings on a real piano, different pianos would also make some noise to a greater or lesser extent. As best I recall our poor old girl did anyway. Casio have a layer of felt that I believe they try to convince customers is there to prevent this type of noise. I think that's more a product of the marketing department than the engineering section, as best I can see the keys don't actually come up that high! Nevertheless they seem to make no more noise than I would expect to hear.

Pete

> 66000 views and counting.

Speakers could be better, keys need to be a better quality. Overall satisfied.

Casio, are you listening. Mike Martin are u seeing these posts??

This is just to make a good value DP even better.

I don't think people will mind paying a little more to get a speaker box and consistent quality in the keys.

Comparing the PX-330 action to my Kawai MP9000, the PX-330 seems to have more static resistance, but less "hammer feel". If I play very softly, I can feel something like a let-off on the MP9000 (even though it doesn't explicitly have this feature), and once this is overcome, I need very little force to keep the keys bottomed out. On the Casio, it feels slightly like there is a spring, and I have to maintain a greater pressure in order to keep the keys bottomed out. Not having access to real pianos, I can't say for certain which is more authentic, however I prefer the feel of the Kawai.
(and I realise real pianos all behave quite differently) Overall the Kawai feels like a more precise action. (and it's 9 years old) I'll see how much the Casio loosens up with time. I never noticed any "loosening up" of the Kawai though - it just stayed the same and very good. ;^)

Greg.

This may as well go here - I notice that the Lounge Lizard electric piano software does not work properly with the Casio tri-sensor action. For notes that are partially released and then re-played, LL does not produce any sound at all.

Pianoteq is working fine, as I expected it would because I had already fed it test MIDI before I had bought the Casio. (I had done the same tests with EWQLP and Kontakt as well, and I don't expect any problems with them either, although I've seen a report regarding some Galaxy pianos [Kontakt engine] NOT working properly yet)

Ok, I suppose you could argue that LL only does electric pianos, and electric pianos don't have a double-escapement mechanism like a grand piano does. However, I think it would at least be nice to have the option. :P

Greg.

I made a comment some time ago about the difficulty I have playing very rapid "double stabs" on my MP9000. It often doesn't sound right - the second stab will sound a bit exaggerated. I do NOT have this problem on the Casio - it is effortless to play in this style just the way I want, with the second stab sounding subtle and soft, with no obvious break in the sound inbetween each stab. I may do an audio demo later. In fact, an idea I have is to record two tracks simultaneously - one of Pianoteq, and one of Lounge Lizard, just to illustrate how often I am using the middle (third) sensor of this Casio action. (i.e - LL will completely miss out on some notes because it is not responding to the third sensor) I'm not saying that the third sensor is soley responsible for the improvement. It may also be that the Casio has less hammer inertia for me to overcome, and of course the return rate of the keys is important too. (I would not be at all surprised if many semi-weighted 2-sensor actions also behaved to my liking)

I can't think of any recordings that have exactly this stlyle of playing off the top of my head. The (acoustic) piano playing in Abba's "Dancing Queen" is similar, however I am playing faster, and I am emphasing the first note - not the second.

Greg.

I've done some testing with this "double stab" thing.

The Kawai is also able to do this well, when I use it with Pianoteq. I quickly switched over to an internal sound (the Wurlitzer, albeit slightly customised), and I noticed the problem again. I don't understand what the problem is yet, but I'm quite sure it's not the Kawai action.

The Kawai's top sensor is in ROUGHLY the same position as the Casio's middle sensor - at about the 50% return point. The top sensor of the Casio (i.e - the Note-Off sensor) is at about the 2/3rds release point. So, assuming the Casio's key return rate is roughly on par with most hammer actions, it is vital that software support the third (middle) sensor of the Casio for the maximum possible repetition rate, because the top sensor is quite high up. When I measured the Roland PHAII in a store, I thought it's top sensor was also about the same position as the Casio's top sensor, so perhaps the PHAIII really does improve the repetition rate of the Roland, because the third sensor would allow it to repeat at a lesser key return than the PHAII?

Anyway, coming back to the Casio vs Kawai. Assuming the keys return at about the same rate (which may not be true), then the advantage of the Casio would not be in the repetition rate - it would be a possible improvement for legato playing, due to the fact that the Note-Off is sent at a later time during the key return. Of course, the other advantage of the Casio is that it also allows repetitions to occur without ANY Note-Off being transmitted between each repetition, which simulates the behaviour of a real grand piano. (I'm not noticing this in my "double stab" playing though - both sound about the same)

Regarding Lounge Lizard - I notice that it DOES behave properly when run as a VST - it's only in standalone mode that it ignores the partial repetitions. Very odd.

Greg.

Greg, could it be that the exaggerated second note is due to two notes playing at that point instead of one? If the sound source doesn't enforce piano rules on how it renders incoming MIDI, then that would be possible, no? If you could make a quick MP3 of it I could tell you for sure by examining it in Audition.

Could it also be that the key commands to Lounge Lizard are being filtered somehow by the VST host?

Hi,

have you ever monitored (with a midi monitor software) how many REAL Midi values the Casio can send (does it support real dynamic playing from 1 to value 127 or does it record only the 4 diff speeds it's internal engine can process)?

This would make a big difference whilst playing a VST instrument.

Thx.

Alexander

I don't think so. Remember, I can reproduce the problem using just the Kawai and it's own internal sounds. I suspect that it're more likely to be a velocity curve problem. The release time may be important too. I may upload the problematic recording, although it's probably not relevant at all to this thread.

FYI, here's how I want it to sound: http://www.box.net/shared/xond3ghlyu This is the PX-330 playing a Wurly preset in Pianoteq. Listen for the very rapid double repeats in the right hand chords. It's working very well. However, as I said, the Kawai can also do this, so this isn't actually a demonstration of any advantage of the Casio's third sensor afterall. Perhaps the Casio is slightly easier to play like this due to it's lighter action.



Maybe, but they've accepted that it's a bug, so I'll just wait for the fix.

Thanks,
Greg.

Doesn't the PX series blend in its 4 samples in its engine? That would imply to me that it has the appropriate data to do so and should be able to export the same. If there's a free version of MIDI monitoring software for Mac that can do this task I may be able to load it and test this if you're interested?

Pete

I've watched the velocities on a graph in an external program (Pianoteq) - it most certainly does transmit the normal 1-127 range of velocities. (I have also listened to how both internal sounds an external sounds behave - no problems whatsoever) As Pete said, despite the fact that the internal acoustic piano sounds use samples taken at 4 different velocities, it interpolates these to create intermediate timbre and volume levels. Even if it did NOT blend the timbres at all, it would still play the 4 levels of samples at the correct volume to match the velocity. For example, it sounds to me like the electric piano sounds do NOT use the AIF "morphing", and they only have 2 velocity layers. There is a very noticable change in timbre at the velocity switchpoint. However, it still adjusts the sound LEVEL properly (in tiny steps) within each of these 2 velocity ranges.

Greg.

Hi,

You can use:

http://www.snoize.com/MIDIMonitor/

It is free and it is for the Mac.

Thx a lot and THX to GREG for the info *HURRRRRAAAYYY*

Alexander