Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players

Yea JW I'm thinking downbeats as 1,2,3,4 and upbeats 4and,1and,2and,3and. Is there anything I said that doesn't make sense? And how do you get 8 beats on each chord for Giant Steps? One chord is half a bar.

I agree completely with that

That is true I think. But even general rules are really hard to find.
I subscribe to the one rule school - the rule is if it sounds good then play it.




I agree completely, although I am far from sure that that is the Ligon approach, which seems to be much more one of connecting up chords based on guide lines.
I may be wrong though as I haven't seen the book.

Scales don't imply a stepwise movement. They are just a bunch of notes. You can play them as 3rd, 4ths, 6ths, extract 7th chords from them, play all manner of different patterns.
You can ALSO play them in a 'scalar' way if you like.

Personally I don't think of the beebop scale. It is just another scale with a single chromatic passing note. You can add that in many different places.





There are many approaches possible on giant steps. Playing 1357 on the downbeats is not the only way, although it is a good place to start.

Yep I meant 8 beats a bar but that really meant 4 for BMaj. Sorry about that.

Some of this discussion can be a bunch of theory so I'd like to be specific. There's a transcription of KJ's ATTYA at hand. We discussed a chorus of it. I already learned a lot from the chorus just based on this supposed rule. Again I started the analysis from the rule. Now what do I have?

Things I learned from KJ:

1. On Cm7, I can outline 1 11 b7 or just the usual 1 b3 5 b7
2. On Dominants, I can outline 1 3 5 b7 or b9 #9 #5
3. On sequences of V I IV, I can sub to V7 I7 IV
4. On a bar I can safely play at least one 9 of the chord
5. On a bar I can displace the chord outline by 1/8.
6. I can approach these chord tones half a step away, or a step away on the offbeat
7. Chord tones outlined can be ascending, descending, or staggered (up down /up down)
8. Approaching the 3rd from the 9th is very common
9. Approaching the chord tone chromatically is very common
10. Chromaticism is more common on Dominants.

On and on...I'm sure I can come up with 50 observations here just on one chorus.

Are these not real things to pick up here? There's obviously a lot of these but before I did this analysis, I knew nothing. Just hearsay. If I played the above, I will be doing SOME of what KJ is doing. It's a start.

The structure that has been defined just puts a framework for observation. Does it really matter that KJ played an 11 on Cm7 as his main outline of the chord? It just means he thought it important so I should too.

Now again, this will be dismissed. So just a moment ago, I was driving and I was once again listening to KJ in the car. I made an effort to IGNORE offbeats. I just tried to concentrate on what he plays on-the-Beat. Everyone can argue all day, but in my head I could hear the chords and I just listen to the direction.

This is obviously just the note picking side of things. KJ's phrasing, rhythmic play etc. is just mind boggling. But on this side of things I don't know why it is perceived to be impossible to figure out.

The only rule I'm applying here is: "Pay Attention to What He does On-The-Beat".

BTW - Here's a response from Ligon posted to a public site. This confirms some of what I already said when I did the analysis of the "chord tones".

For quite a few years, virtually the only thing being taught to novices was the scale syllabus - as outlined in Aebersold / Baker type books. As anyone who has either taught students this way, or been a student being taught this way, the result of following this method exclusively is bland, often boring (but sort-of correct) solos. Surprisingly, this methodology lasted for years - even decades. I say hooray for people like Bert Ligon, and Hal Galper!

Sure, any solo by a great player can be analysed as scales - but the missing information is the placement of essential chord tones. A good player does it intuitively - not consciously or deliberately placing them appropriately.

I have just had a hunt for my copy of the Ligon book, but can't find it to check, but I think that Ligon regards the notes of the triad (root, 3rd and 5th) as the primary notes, and of these the 3rd he regards as of particular importance. The rest (including the 7th) are tensions that most often are resolved.

With embellishments of one sort or another, substitutions, anticipations and displacement of notes, it is difficult to decode a passage in a solo as sophisticated and complex as Keith Jarrett's. Also, articulation and accents I am sure play a part in creating a satisfying line. But, I reckon the Ligon analysis of ATTYA is valid. There is a lot more in Ligon's book that is worth considering. His 3 'outlines' - an interesting and useful idea, other ways to add emphasis to the primary chord tones such as surrounding, finishing a phrase on a chord tone (especially the 3rd) etc.

Just my (Australian) 2 cents worth!

Doug

I can only work from a specific. At least from the ATTYA solo snippet, I see no such pattern yet as you explain. So I couldn't agree or disagree.

I'd like to work from a standpoint of evidence. It really because it's at the end of the bar or is it because he was doing it on a dominant? Was he doing chromatism on a minor chord or dominant?

As evident from even this ATTYA chorus, he was free to go chromatic on the dominants. I didn't see him do that on a minor7 or a major7 which was a revelation it itself. I already drew that as observation based on the selected chord tones.

Is this discussion clarifying anything for anyone? I'm at a loss to think that there is ultimately any benefit from digging in and defending a certain point of view.

But to throw something else out there that I'd kind of like others to comment on:

I believe KJ is currently probably one of the least harmonically daring jazz pianists out there. I also think he will go down in history as one of the best, but somewhat similar to JS Bach in that he was perfecting things others of his generation had already abandoned for other more harmonically advanced avenues of expression.

In a nutshell, when I listen to KJ I hear:

1. Emphasis on chord tones (lots of 1, 3, 5)
2. Lots of diatonic stuff leading to each chord tone
3. Blues scales when he occasionally abandons the diatonic
4. Repetition of cells, often outlining chord tones
5. Singable solo ideas often at all times and all speeds (logical interval leaps included)
6. Feel and rhythm used to best emphasis diatonic or blues scales
7. Limited (tasteful) use of altered scale/altered chords
8. Virtual absence of dissonance, or outlining 'difficult' intervals
9. One or two chord 'groove' which often evolves from a previously used blues riff
10.Some guy keeps on showing up in his recordings and kind of ruins them by moaning along

I'm not sure if everyone or anyone would agree to any or all of what I said, but in any case, I also don't think that the information would help any of us play more like him.

No I can't agree with that. He is on a different harmonic planet than other players. The only ones who are even in the same ballpark are Chick and Herbie.
It is true that Keith is not frightened by simple triad music (that most other players would not dream of playing) but he is very varied in his approach. If you just listen to the standards trio you might be fooled into thinking of him as a bit retro, but if you take his body of work as a whole (including the solo albums, the classical compositions, the american and european quartet, the classical stuff, and the rest of it) then there is no doubt about his harmonic daring.

Just have a listen to this one ....
piano solo starts at about 12 mins if you cannot make it through one of the most intense sax solos I have ever heard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYCpl2lKlj8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA7fqYrQGps&feature=related

Start listening at around a minute for some good examples of this

You could make the same criticism of Bill Evans then. He does a lot of the same things and even less use of Alt (though heavy on the b9).

What does it tell us? Some possibilities in my head.

(1) The beauty of the line cannot be captured emotionally in the structure of just saying chord tones, etc. Although I believe it to be true, I accept it to be incomplete. The mechanics of chord tones and such is really about 'playing the changes'. The big picture and connecting all the various ii-V-I's into a sensible whole is not something anyone has even tried to explain (and which I am sure is Beeboss' point). If I can just post a track from Kenny Werners version of Giant Steps (solo piano), this will explain itself (I don't know how to do that at the moment). This is where the true artistry comes in.

(2) Listening to KJ shows so much going on rhythmically, phrasing, etc. that it's like saying he can choose notes like Bach. But how he applies those notes and create a context for the moment and express it so exquisitely technically speaking shows up beautifully in my ears. Listen how he times the note on a beat and those alone have their own tension and release.

(3) My teacher is a Modern Jazz player. Yet in theory, the doesn't choose notes any differently from Bill Evans or KJ. What he does though that makes it sound different is he layers a different chord on top of the regular changes. But he plays it just like that was the regular change. I see Chick doing the same thing.

Thanks for your comments Doug.

I want to add a point based on what you said. I don't think it can be assumed that I actually think KJ, Bill Evans, Chick etc. are out there figuring out actual chord tones on downbeats.

Since I've learned this methodology years ago now, I find that it has become instinctive in me. So I presume it has always been instinctive in the masters. For me, it's just an ability to sustain a general harmonic outline in my ears.

But I don't want to imply too that I believe this is the complete story. It is but a small facet and a learning/teaching tool. To turn the harmonic 'outline' into a full coherent message is no simple task.

Everyone petered out from a little debate?

Interesting; the Jarrett discussion. One thing I miss in it and that's the fact the KJ is also a composer: jazz, 'classical', etc, so his improvising knowledge is also an intuitive composition.
To "play" like him one needs to study (and play); Bach, Mozart, Ravel, Copland, Scriabin, Chopin, etc etc as well as Monk, Jamal, Dixieland, Ragtime, Stride, freeform - Ornette, et al. And then some pop (heard KJ's Beatles variations or the Dylan period?) mixed with Folk (world) music.

In other words; music. :-)

Btw here's KJ at the age of twenty.

Btw too . . . I had an interesting chat with Palle Danielsson (the bass player on those 'Belonging' tracks) at a birthday party this summer. I asked him about the recording of Belonging - what stopped me in my tracks was Palle's words: "it's all first takes". And there was no rehearsals, everybody sight-read the tunes (Jan is an excellent sight-reader). "Keith wrote those tunes on the plane over".

Chris, my teacher also told me that all his recordings are single takes. I guess it simulates playing live. It's actually amazing when you think about it. At their level, they have the ability to concentrate fully for those moments. Of course, after the gig/recording, you can see the exhaustion...

I've been really having fun with my iRealBook Iphone App and having my little combo so here's a practice snippet. I think this may be my first post here with a rhythm section...

All the Things Your Are (Combo)
http://www.box.net/shared/38lziqi7oa

Very cool stuff JW. Do you have sound in on you keyboard, or you put that through an amp?

Wouldn't that be great having a "In" in the Keyboard? But no, I just have a mixer between the keyboard and the monitors. However, I didn't plug the Zoom H3 in to the mixer. I just recorded with the Mic. Next time. But it does change how I practice now.