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A thought about the penciled in fingering (I won't touch the question of changing teachers) - why not make a copy of the pieces before the teacher does anything with them and keep those at home, as your starting point?

The first thought is that this act of erasing the teacher's marks can almost look like a conflict of two authorities: the one has put in the fingering,and the other one physically erase them. How is that experienced by the child?

But what if you keep the penciled in original. Then pull out the unmarked copies and decide to keep most of the penciled in numbers but get rid of some of them gradually? This was suggested here by a teacher last year. The student gradually gets weaned from the numbers and starts being able to read the notes bit by bit. This way there is also a feeling of working with the teacher's material, instead of seemingly fighting the teacher's instructions. Just a thought.

Many of you act as if the child can like only one teacher. Certainly she likes the current one, but it is entirely possible to like a new one as well, perhaps even better!

The child is not learning how to read music and the teacher is not concerned with it. Change is necessary.

Possible... but (highly) unlikely.

I think that your concerns are a bit unnecessary. The girl is 8-years-old -- she shouldn't be learning the piano to strive for perfection or become flawless in every facet of play, but rather to simply enjoy herself and have a good time. She seems to be doing that, so why change? The fact that the other students/parents have described your daughter's playing as inspirational illustrates that she's already a proficient performer for her age.

I'm sure that if she sticks with the instrument, the sight-reading will come in time. Plus, for all we know, she may end up growing tired of the piano and quitting in a year or 2 (perhaps, even, because of a dislike for a new teacher...).

However, if you truly are worried about her inability to sightread, I would suggest printing out supplementary pieces (without any added fingerings) and working on them with her separately.

I teach theory separate, and when a theory question/issue arises while playing I teach it there also...it is most relevant then.

I don't think the present teacher is doing so badly, over-all, for the child's age and stage. However, I don't think you will be happy until you have changed to another who will be willing to push your daughter along faster.

My suggestion is, get a teacher for yourself and continue your own music studies. Lead the child by example and encouragement. A set and enforced framework, like daily practice at the same time--- well, kids need some dependable structure. If she wants help, you might encourage her to ask for it, and wait until she does.

Do some fun music things. Watch U-Tube clips together (look at the hands), go to concerts that a child of that age would enjoy, etc. You will be so glad later that you enjoyed this stage of her life... for she will be grown up before you know it.

Since you ask about writing in the fingerings for every note, I think it is ok. It is a learning stage, to teach the child to choose fingerings deliberately: a valuable foundation of technique. Once the technique is acquired, many fewer fingering reminders will be necessary and she will be able to choose fingerings for herself.

In fact, the work copy of the score can be marked with many other things. Tempi, dynamics (personally, I'm against pounding--- I'm definitely with you on that one), notes on feeling and expression, signposts of danger, even note names in some places (preferable to learning mistakes in muscle memory). Reminders of how certain tricky sections can be counted out. Beginning points for practicing sections. Lots of things can help a student.

So I say, don't worry about this. I see it as a great advantage that she is practicing and enjoying her music. Getting her a real piano during this economic recession is a real sign of commitment on your part.

The flat-fingered technique does need to be replaced with gently arched fingers, for her own good. Some famous concert artists use a pretty flat finger technique, though. If you don't have an adjustable bench, getting one could be a big help--- both to her development of technique and a sound posture, and to avoid injuries.

Best of luck to you and your daughter.

No, no, no! The fingering is not about teaching fingering techniques at this stage. It is being used as a substitute for reading. This is exactly the stage at which the foundation is being laid, reading being at the top of the list. The parent shouldn't have to supplement what the teacher is doing.

There are lots of piano teachers out there. Surely there is someone who is both qualified and likeable.

Poor note-reading leads to slow learning later on. Sight reading will be deplorable, and the student will continue to struggle and become frustrated. This is the reason why method books like the old Alfred series and John Thompson are being attacked so frequently in this forum.

What you say is surely true. However, it is not the point.

Music is a human thing, an expression of the social nature of human beings. It is more than just a child and his instrument; the instrument is a means of communication, of communion, not in an abstract sense but concretely, with one or two or three or several other human beings.

A child is a fragile thing; she is not a PC, of which you can simply upgrade the microchip if you are not satisfied with the performance. This teacher appears to be having a certain success with this girl. To tear her away would be a lesson of the worst type.

This said, I agree completely with the importance of reading and with the evaluation that this is a weakness in the teacher's approach. Specifically, I am 100 percent in agreement with this

But Alreadyinuse must accept this weakness, at least for the moment. All teachers have their weakness and their strength. And she can consider this teacher's weakness as a reflection of her own: music has not been a part of her life, so there is a limitation of what she can transmit to her daughter. C'est la vie.

On the other hand, I strongly disagree with this proposition:



To the contrary, the parent must supplement what the teacher is doing, even with the best of teachers.

A teacher sees a child a half an hour a week, maybe less, maybe 45 minutes; an hour after many years of study.

Is that really enough time to say all that there is to say?

An angel can perhaps breath the spirit into a poor mortal in less than an instant, but I don't suppose that many of you piano teachers have gotten to that point ... yet.

The best situation is a student, a good teacher, and an involved parent/adult who acts as coach at the home to re-enforce the lessons.

I think you need to think about the purpose of reading music as opposed to some sort of rote learning/learning by ear, etc.

When you learn to read music, you are learning another language. This is the language composers use to communicate. It allows music to be transmitted across cultures and across time, and it allows musicians to understand precisely what the composer wanted.

It also develops different pathways in the brain than other types of learning. It is an intellectual skill that allows a deeper understanding of the music. Learning by using only finger numbers and one's ear is a very limited method, and it causes a lot of problems down the road when you want to learn more complicated music -- I would posit that it can't be done by most people.

Exhibit A: I have a friend who loves music who has been playing a folk instrument for about 40 years. She can read treble clef pretty well, but imperfectly, and she has a hard time translating what she sees into what comes out of her instrument. She really plays most of the tunes by ear (and she will be the first to admit it). A few years ago, she took up the piano, something she'd always wanted to do, but she is really struggling, and a lot of her struggle relates to poor reading ability. Again, she simply cannot translate what she sees on the page to what her fingers are doing.

Sure, the child can learn the simple pieces in the first few books of a method by reading finger numbers, and she can have fun doing it, but what then?

That'll be 2 cents, please.

The other unmentioned problem is the fact that this child has had lessons for 1.5 years and only just now got a piano. So far I haven't met a piano teacher who would consider an organ an adequate substitute.

I had this situation come up and posted about a year ago. Everyone agreed that the child either needed organ lessons, or to get a piano in order to start piano lessons.

Putting all the finger numbers on all the notes for very easy music at 1.5 years is not very different from putting stickers on the keys to indicate what notes they are, or using one of those cheap keyboards that lights up the notes.

Its all very limiting to proper learning.

Thank you all again for taking the time to respond.

I have read through all the replies and it is hard to tell what is the right thing to do. Some think I should change and others think that if I do, I don’t care about my daughter ☹ Notwithstanding the well-reasoned arguments made to change, with which I agree, I am now at the point where I don’t think I can politely cancel so close to the start of the semester. As well -- and you may think I am dense for not realizing this before -- she may actually mind if we switch. I had previously assumed that since her schedule is full all the time (it is very hard to schedule make-up lessons) an old student out would just mean a new student in, no hard feelings. Having read other threads here, things may be more complicated than that. If I am going to bow out in the future, I think I will need to find a way to do it graciously with advance notice.

The positives of staying on, as people pointed out, are that my daughter likes her, practices, and is happy to perform. She is also advancing through the books. I understand that all teachers have weaknesses. However, I am going to try to do things so that I can live with the weaknesses while benefiting from the strengths.

Can I ask the teacher to commit in advance to not adding to the fingering beyond what is included in the book? (The Faber series already indicates the fingering whenever there is a hand-position change and tells you the starting position.) It seemed that there was enough skepticism about the fingering approach here that my position could be seen as reasonable? I care more about the strength of sight reading as a foundation for going forward than I do about a repertoire of memorized songs which just reflects how much my daughter practices. If the teacher and I could agree in advance, I could avoid the authority conflict that was pointed out.

The other thing I can do is commit myself to doing the theory with her. She practices 35 minutes a day 5 days a week in two blocks (10 min before school, 25 min after school). If I replace the morning practice with theory, she will learn her new pieces less quickly at first but eventually perhaps the extra theory will actually facilitate her progress. In any case, I don’t want to add to her practice time because she also practices Irish Dance, has homework and I want her to have time to play/draw and do what she wants.

I hope (unreasonably?) that the problems of technique may correct themselves on the piano. I think one reason the teacher does not correct her is that the teacher knows that kids (all people!) don’t like being corrected. So she focuses on a few corrections she thinks are important and hand position never makes it to the top of the list.

Finally, I agree that there are downsides to an organ, and we did try unsuccessfully to get a piano earlier. You might be surprised that there were some positives to the older but high-end organ. Chord progressions sound amazing. Once she got them all right at PP, we’d let her move up to P, etc until she worked her way up to FF and T which were thrilling and made our basement reverberate like Westminster Cathedral at Easter ☺ With the piano we are moving on to more nuanced thrills.

I am again sorry for the long post. Thank you all who offered your opinions and suggestions.

Out of curiousity how do you intend to notify this teacher that you will non longer be using her?

just curious.

Alreadyinuse - I've read many of these posts previously, but not today, so forgive me if I repeat something that has been suggested already.

I think it is fair to explain to the teacher that you are interested in helping your daughter learn to read the staff, and that you'd like to cut back on the "helping" and not add extra finger numbers if possible. But beyond that, rather than try to "adjust" what the teacher does, perhaps you can "augment" it.

There are a number of websites that offer free flashcards, for example. Maybe for a few minutes a day - between dinner and dessert, or whatever (I'd do it apart from her normal piano practice) you could see if she can get 10 cards right in a row. Here's one site - there are others:
http://linkwaregraphics.com/music/flashcards/#music-notes

There are also some online games. Here are some:

http://www.quiz-tree.com/The_Musical_Staff_main.html
http://www.musicracer.com/

Alreadyinuse - I hope things work out for you.

As a teacher who works with many children, and also transfer students of all ages from other teachers, I would like to offer my thoughts of what you wrote:



That also means that your daughter likes the piano, and likes to play, and therefore would most likely continue to do so with another teacher.

I had several teachers as a child, each one more suited to fit my musical growth. Changing teachers never stopped me, but rather helped me, just as school children advance in grade, and get new teachers as they advance.



Thats a great idea. You could also introduce some very easy pieces without any fingering, to take control of that situation, and gently break her into the concept of reading the notes w/out finger numbers.



Hand position is one of the most important items. Ingrained poor hand position habits will hobble her playing, are difficult to break, and can even cause injury later on. I would put it, along with technique, at the top of the list, not on the bottom.

In your search for another teacher, ask about how he/she teaches technique.

Keep in mind that playing the piano is a physical activity, and pianists are athletes with their hands. Technique is simply the physical training of the hand to play the piano comfortably and well...and hand position is an integral part of technique. Technique is an essential component to playing well.

Best wishes!

Alreadyinuse,
Keep it simple. Your job is to choose what is best for your daughter. Your job is not to speculate about other people's feelings. The way to give notice is to check your teacher's policy about giving notice. Have you signed a year long contract? Does the teacher have a policy? If not, then a 2 week notice would be adequate and considerate.

Yes to the question about fingering.

Theory at home at your daughter's level will only take 10 minutes a week.

Technique problems do not correct themselves.

It sounds to me like you are very fearful. Afraid to change teachers for fear of hurting someone's feelings. Afraid to speak to the teacher to even tell her to stop writing in additional finger numbers and to instead see if she can teach your child to read the notes.

But the choices are yours. You can always look back and say no my daughter did not learn to read music, but she had a good time seeing her teacher and I never hurt the teachers feelings. Maybe that will be enough for you.

Lollipop - thank you for those great links! I was looking for a note reading game that doesn't have time pressure (too stressful when you're starting out) and doesn't have ledger lines on the first level. There is another thread on computer note recognition games that those links would be great on.

Rocket - I am not ruling out changing teachers. I would do it after Christmas or at the end of the school year depending on how things were going and what my options were. That would give me time to really look at who is available, to get references from other parents etc. I plan to start myself with someone who comes to the house and if I like the person and they seem like they'd be a good fit for my daughter, we could switch to both of us having lessons at the house. In the meantime, I will try to do something about her sight-reading and hand position. The piano arrives Monday so maybe with new circumstances we can start new habits.

Ann - the teacher doesn't have a contract and there are no written policies. I don't know about two weeks notice being adequate. It seems harsh. If I were sure that switching teachers was the right decision, I would do it. However, the majority of the responders on this thread were actually doubtful and thought her progress thus far justified persisting with this teacher while trying to remedy some issues. At least that's how I read the responses. Since I was unsure myself what to do, I think it is possible the teacher is doing a reasonable job and firing her with essentially no notice is unjustified. There are a few things at risk with switching that do matter to me, and those include my daughter's happiness and her confidence. I believe other teachers could nurture those as well, but if I can remedy the sight-reading problems and work on the hand position myself, maybe my feelings about the weaknesses of the lessons will change. If they don't, I'll have time to properly look for a better teacher and time to give more reasonable notice...

You're making a show of weighing options and deciding rationally, but I've seen this way to many times in the past to believe that. This hits at the most visceral level with a parent: an outsider has bonded with his child in a most special way. In my experience, in this type of situation, once the parent recognizes the quality of the bond between his child and the teacher, the teacher is history. Between harassing your child over this trivial finger issue (you've made a major issue out of nothing in order to justify switching teachers--this is very typical in this type of situation; we've seen this time and again on this forum), so that she will "want" to change teachers, and harassing the teacher so as to provoke a confrontation so that you "have to" change teachers, this teacher is already out the door.