Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Teacher stealing my student - UPDATE

To me, the multiple teacher thing is not about ownership or control.

Instead there are other issues.

First, I would be concerned about the other teacher giving the student conflicting advice and information. For example, if I want my students of that age and level to practice, say, an hour a day, and the other teacher says 15 minutes is fine, then that is a problem. Conflicting advice can only cause confusion for the student.

Sure, a smart and talented student could opt for the best advice, but not all could do that.

One solution is if both teachers know each other, and are familiar with each other's teaching philosophy and style, and feel comfortable with such an exchange.

Second, why is the student wanting to go to another teacher at the same time?

If it is because the other teacher teaches something that I don't, that is fine. For example, I do not teach Jazz, but have had students who study with me and take lessons from a local Jazz teacher.

But if we both teach essentially the same thing, then why is it happening? Am I lacking something...if so, I want to know what that is.

But sometimes some other reason is why.

I did have one student who wanted to get ahead very quickly, and she thought that having multiple teachers would accomplish that. If one teacher is good, 2 is better, and I suppose 20 is even better than that.

She also said that she would practice at least 4 hours a day. She lasted about 6 months and disappeared.

So unless the other teacher has something distinct to offer that I do not, then multiple teachers is at least somewhat of a concern.

You make some valid points. There can be practical issues with multiple teachers.

But that wasn't really the case here. The OP suspected immediately that the multiple teacher bit was a prelude to losing the student, and was correct.

We don't know why. The parent involved may have some specific reasons, or may just have a vague desire to change, or some combination. Regardless, they are under no obligation to explain why, and if you attempt to force them they may dissemble to avoid conflict. Most parents do.

Ownership is a non-starter. I don't think anyone has suggested that idea, even DD. Yes, the vibes suggest that DD is really put out by this situation, but there are many things swirling around besides the silly idea of student possession.

It is a fact that many teacher organizations feel the need to write ethics codicils for their members proscribing certain behaviors. Most professions have codes of conduct for how members are supposed to treat each other. Whether you call it student stealing or 'inappropriate solicitation' is immaterial. Teacher groups try to write language that gives the flavor of what they consider over-the-line attempts to pull students away from their current teacher. The fact that they feel compelled to write this stuff down suggests to me that the temptations are strong, and the behavior is actually occurring as opposed to hypothetical.

I am perfectly happy with these general codes of behavior. As external rules that one can point to, they may even make little societies like teacher organizations function more smoothly. Indeed, no code can be written to describe the full range of bad behaviors, and we can all describe grey areas where rules and 'what is right' may differ. For instance, is it student stealing to suggest to a parent that a particular, and particularly incompetent, teacher is harming the prospects of their child? Who decides that the other teacher is incompetent and is doing harm? If you offer your own services in place of the truly incompetent teacher, are you yourself over the line? (Indeed, you are).

Little teacher societies are not courts. It's hard to denounce bad behavior at a public meeting. The risk-reward tradeoff is all wrong. But frankly, sometimes that may be what is needed within little groups, no matter how uncomfortable it may make you feel. If there are people within the group who are engaging in arguably unethical solicitation of other peoples' students, someone needs to bring a coalition of members to exert moral pressure on the offender or at least to air the issue publicly. That way, everyone is alerted to the poisonous dynamic that is eating at the group.

Arguably, 'student stealing' is not just another form of healthy competition.

Yet switching teachers is absolutely the fundamental right of the family. To think otherwise, no matter how much you think you have helped the student, is to stamp your ego on what is fundamentally a professional relationship. The family is the sovereign decision maker in its own interests. You are only one advisor.

You may feel a twinge of pain if someone leaves, especially if that someone seems to be doing well and/or they leave without giving you what you consider a good reason or a polite exit. Welcome to humanity. Get over it.

Lastly, having multiple teachers is a horribly complex issue. As an advanced student, I think it may be fairly benign in most cases. Older students can compartmentalize better, and the teachers actually can coordinate (you teach classical and I teach lead sheets, for instance). For younger students, the risks of creating confusion and divided loyalty do seem quite a bit greater. It's difficult to lay out hard and fast rules here, and the teachers' own personalities and possible insecurities get mixed into the stew.

My son studied with two teachers for a while, one during the academic year and one over the summer. Did that raise some eyebrows in the little teacher community here? You bet. I've heard that this summer teacher (who is now a close friend) was even reproached for ..... yep, student stealing!

Ultimately, I think everybody got with the program. The two teachers didn't tread on each other and having different approaches to learning the instrument was a good idea. And it was MY idea in the first place (no improper solicitation involved at all). The academic year teacher at that point was taking the summer off, and I had no intention of letting the summer slip by with no formal music training. Thus the two-teacher relationship was born and then became routine even once the first teacher began offering some summer lessons.

When I switched my son to his current teacher, the two-teacher format ended. Yes, I did indeed pull a teacher switch, even though the initial primary teacher was doing a fine job. That was my choice and my son's choice. He was actively involved in the decision. I would not have formalized the switch without his positive approval. Although the initial teacher was doing quite well with him, that fact conferred no ownership rights.

Indeed, all teacher switches within a fairly circumscribed local community of teachers is likely to raise some eyebrows. But switching teachers should be a perfectly normal part of musical life.

So, it was wrong for this teacher to steal your student, and now you're asking if it's OK for you to do the same? I understand your feelings are hurt, and you have every right to be upset. No one likes losing a student you've invested so much time and energy into. Yes, you got paid, but there is always an emotional attachment one has to their students - it can't be helped. However, when a student decides to move on (and it ultimately was their decision - right or wrong, influenced by this other teacher or not) it can feel like personal rejection.

The most important thing to learn from this to help you grow as a teacher is to understand that at some point EVERY student will leave you. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the fact remains you will only have each student for a time. Was the time that you had with this student positive and uplifting for them? It sounds like it. Send the family a thank you card and let them know you enjoyed watching her grow musically and that you'd be happy to work with her in the future. End it on a positive note with the family.

As far as your dealings with this other teacher, do you and this other teacher belong to the local MTNA chapter or some other teacher organization? You may want to consult with other local teachers and see if they've been victimized by this teacher as well. If so, then perhaps the president of the chapter could write a letter to her warning her of actions. If she's not a member, however, there's not much you can nor should do. This sort of thing always catches up with them in the end, so don't think that she will get away with it. However, guard yourself against making yourself look bad or unprofessional by refraining from idle gossip about the teacher. Mention it once at a meeting, and then move on. Chances are if she's done this to you she will do it again to others or already has.

I don't see anything wrong with this clause. A teacher can put whatever they want in their policy, and if the student agrees then there's no problem. In this case, the student did not agree and decided to choose this other than rather than the OP. Again, no problem there, because you're right, they have the right to study with whomever they want. It doesn't prevent a student from going elsewhere at all.

While I do not have such a clause in my policy, I agree with the concept of not studying with multiple teachers at one time. This is not the same as going to a master class, music camp, taking a lessons or two with a teacher recommended by me, etc. I think that if a student has two teachers that they meet with on a weekly basis, however, they can often be given conflicting information if they are studying the same pieces/style of music with them (a classical student going to study with someone for jazz would not be a problem).

Some parents may not understand this, however, and may perceive this as an odd thing to put in a policy. Sometimes these things are better dealt with in person on an as-needed basis.

I have a question: were these "rules" in your policy in writing, or just something that you spoke to them about? I had previously made the assumption that this was in your policy.

I do have a clause in my student letter (not part of the policy that they sign, but part of the "welcome to my studio" portion) that explains that I do not want to be part of a two-teacher situation unless the other teacher is aware and approves. Just a couple times I've had students who come to me with the idea that they might like me better, but aren't willing to cut the strings with the previous teacher just in case. I'm not interested in these kinds of trial periods, and after the introductory meeting, when I learn this, I ask them to contact me when and if they decide to end lessons elsewhere.

In my experience, it is just good manners (and politic) to talk to the first teacher about lessons with another. My kids never studied with two teachers at once, but they did take summers to study elsewhere, or to have single lessons with other teachers. They did this to expand their experience and their network. To experience different teaching styles, and to get feedback from other than the usual source. It was valuable.

But each time, my son would go to his primary teacher and say, "What would you think about me taking a few lessons from so and so?" The teacher was actually very helpful - sometimes making contact on our behalf. And sometimes steering us in a different direction all together.

My nephew takes from two teachers. The "fun" teacher knows about the "classical" teacher but not vice versa. I don't know that the classical teacher has said no doubling up, only that they are afraid she will. It makes me angry that my relatives put their son in this situation, teaching deceit. And he is a busy kid, and guess which music falls by the wayside when he doesn't have time for both?

I wouldn't take it personally. Things happen that make us sad sometimes. I would attribute the change due to the fact that the family was Polish as well.

If the governing association punishes student stealing of this type, then they are in effect protecting incompetent teachers - unless there is also some mechanism in place for addressing that problem.

Perhaps, Tim, the question we ought to be asking is: "What business is it of Teacher A how student of Teacher B is doing?"

Why should they be commenting to a parent in the first place?

If the parent(s) didn't solicit the information, then the motivation of the teacher comes into question.

I see hundreds of piano students each year. I keep my comments positive and my criticisms to myself. I am not the judge of other teachers in the community.

Further, if a student is playing poorly, whose fault is it? The teacher, the student, the parent, or the learning environment? How can you possibly know?

We have auditions, adjudications, and competitions for judging the quality of students' playing. That, it seems to me, is the proper place for criticism. Not off the cuff remarks by a teacher who is suddenly feeling they are another Hanslick and can critique the playing and teaching of others. And which, oh, by the way, they are certain they can do a better job if only the student switches to them.

I agree with John's refutement of Tim's statement. It's not about protecting incompetent teachers; it's about punishing very unprofessional behavior that has no place in the world of piano pedagogy.

We all want to learn from the best we can find and afford for sure, if you are a better teacher, chances are there you student may come back to you.

His/her business as a teacher. The student's wellbeing must always come first. No doubt Jesus wasn't above pinching the odd follower!

I'm sorry, but the world of piano pedagogy isn't some little bubble immune to many of the uglier aspects human nature. If you call this behaviour unprofessional, you have much to learn about pianists and teachers.

This student had NO obligation WHATSOEVER to stay with the OP for any length of time. I'm sorry to say this, but it's true. That student can do with his/her money as he/she pleases.

My condolences to the OP...life sucks...and all that jazz. It's a tough world. That other teacher has something which you lack...be it Polish fluency, lower prices, a better piano....who knows. Maybe she's just a better teacher, full stop.

I've done A LOT of teacher changing in my life, and I've had students rudely switch on me as well without giving me notice or even apologizing. I've burned bridges. Stomped on toes. Hurt feelings. WHATEVER.

Do I feel bad about it? Not really. At the end of the day, I have benefited immensely from the many switches I have made. That's what matters. It's the student's best interest which matters. Not the interest of the teacher.

This sort of thing happens all the way up to the very highest level in the world.

If it's too much for you... I'm sorry.

I'm sorry you lost a student-it seems they weren't very courteous in the way they handled the situation. I'm sorry it was your best student.

For those who talk of 'poison' and 'small claims court' and 'bring it up with the MTNA'...... you're joking, right?

Any student can leave any teacher at any time for any reason.

There is NOTHING you can do about it as a teacher...
Well, you can hold a grudge against the family, you can whine about it, you can be bitter, etc.

Does that help the situation? Does that get you your student back? Does it really make you feel better?

Didn't think so.

John V.D. Brook = Jesus. Well that's a new one to me!

There is a reason why music teacher organizations don't try to define malpractice. Well, actually there are two reasons. The first is that musical malpractice rarely produces meaningful increases in morbidity or mortality!

More importantly for our purposes here, it is quite reasonable for teachers' organizations to be focused on defining how teachers should (and should not) behave toward each other. Codes of professional conduct are relatively clear and clean. Defining good and bad teaching is not. To put it another way, the MTNA can define the sort of credentials that are desirable or necessary, but it would be presumptuous for such an organization to try to lay out all the attributes of good and bad teaching in the form of actionable rules. The consumer ultimately is responsible for deciding whether or not they are receiving value for money.

I believe it's John V.D. v Jesus! (V.D. Brook I never noticed before!)

@JustAnotherPianist - I think you're being a little unfair to the OP, there. Their complaint wasn't so much aimed at the student, but at the way the other teacher seemed to solicit business away from him in an underhand manner.

If a teacher's reputation is such that it encourages existing students of other teachers to transfer to them, so be it. However, to go along to a concert of another teacher and approach students like this (correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what happened, right?) is really not good behaviour - like others have said, the perceived ability and progress of someone else's student is entirely dependent on so many factors that are simply unknowable from just watching a performance, and, as far as decent, professional behaviour is concerned, I think it is way off the mark.

For the record, I'm in total agreement with Morodiene's take on this.

Gee, the glass is always half empty eh??? Your post is really bitter. Good grief!

Well, I'm not sure how advocating minding your own business became an anti-Jesus screed. I believe He also said something to the effect of "not worrying about the speck in your neighbor's eye until you remove the log in your own eye."

BTW, the most recent "student nabbing" teacher I met was a legend in her own mind.