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#1510035 - 09/06/10 11:39 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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#1510112 - 09/06/10 01:29 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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Originally Posted by dewster
Have they fixed the no string resonance with MIDI playback issue that plagued all of the Kawai DPs I've tested (Roland HP-307 has similar issues)? That's the reason my testing was done that way. And the factory default main piano voice is what I routinely test as DP manufacturers generally put their best foot forward there.

I couldn't care less, as MIDI playback does not influence the live piano playing experience (including string resonance) at all and it has been demonstrated many times already that the Kawai CA93/CA63 can quite uniquely be tweaked to the next level, way beyond its basic factory settings. whistle Although the sound signature itself is arguably excellent (personal taste), Kawai should have spent more efforts developing their factory presets to the max i.m.h.o.


Originally Posted by dewster

1. I could layer two separate piano voices on our old P120 (not comparable?).

Ancient static layering without dynamic voicing is no good for making acoustic piano voices sound alive and therefore is not comparable at all (+sonic artifacts alert).


Originally Posted by dewster

2. Roland SN doesn't really need this to sound good.

Let's reformulate: Roland SN is unable to perform dynamic layering with timbre matching and therefore its tweakability is unexpectedly limited compared to the Kawai CA93/CA63.


Originally Posted by dewster

The idea of masking looping with more looping layered on top makes me kind of tired. I'm sure it helps the inherent lameness of looping, but to me it is firmly in the 2 * wrong != right category.

(Not really) sorry to disappoint you that I found a way for the Kawai CA93/CA63 to make any small remaining noticability of looping in the decay phase disappear and make its versatile piano timbres sound extremely dynamic. cool


K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
#1510140 - 09/06/10 02:25 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: TADutchman]  
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Originally Posted by TADutchman
I couldn't care less, as MIDI playback does not influence the live piano playing experience (including string resonance) at all ...

For some of us MIDI playback is quite critical. So I take it that this hasn't been fixed in the various Kawai DPs?

Originally Posted by TADutchman
Let's reformulate: Roland SN is unable to perform dynamic layering with timbre matching and therefore its tweakability is unexpectedly limited compared to the Kawai CA93/CA63.

I really don't think the fairly complete Roland SN piano designer is "unexpectedly limited".

#1510155 - 09/06/10 03:00 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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Roland SN vs Kawai Ultra PHI (88 note sampling) vs Yamaha pure CFIIIS.

Techinical superiority?
Most Pleasing sound? (Debatable issue)
Long sustainance of notes?
The resonance and reverberations of the notes?


Brian


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#1510169 - 09/06/10 03:29 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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Hi Brian, here's a reference to some extensive discussions:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1407600/1.html


K A W A I ..... R O L A N D ......... E - M U
C A - 9 3 ......... A X - 7 ...... X B O A R D - 4 9
#1510188 - 09/06/10 04:01 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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To come back to the PHAIII / PHAIII-S topic; I think it's typical of these times for manufacturers to be fuzzy in the communication of technical specifications. No matter if it's about TV's , cars, digital instruments or even software - they're excellent in creating their own unique- , non-existing terminology for many features of the products which makes it hard to compare specs with the competition, simultaneously creates a reality distortion field for the customers and furthermore they are champions in leaving out a lot of (critical) information.

IMHO if something is not mentioned in the specs and/or only described in vague terminology or in ways that are not sufficiently explained (PHAIII vs PHAIII-S anyone ?) than you have to be suspicious. As always assumption is...

For the rest I agree with an earlier post that even if the specs are the same (e.g. PHA-II on LX10, DP-PE or HP-PE series and on RD700GX) , than I'm sure they still cheat, because they really do NOT feel exactly the same. Perhaps they have different batches for different products that have to meet higher or lower standards in quality control, or they have a slightly different design or use of materials. Since the specs don't have to be evaluated by any authority , they can label it anything they want whenever they like. I'm sure keybeds sharing the same name will have a similar basic design, but their exact implementation may still vary between different instruments and price ranges.

Try before you buy was never more true...

#1510221 - 09/06/10 04:48 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
I play PHA II (FP7) and PHA II (HP-207 and RD-700GX). The FP7 is inferior, bottoms out much harder, is more fatiguing etc. They are not the same action, even if they have the same name designation. I enjoy the action far more on the RD and HP than the FP.

If you read the specs carefully, you'll realize they don't have the same action: FP7 is "PHA II", while HP-207 and RD-700GX are "PHA II Ivory Feel with Escapement" (there is also a "PHA II with Escapement" iirc).

Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Some here are assuming that the NX PHA III action will be identical to that of V-Piano. Well, maybe -but I don't think you can make any assumptions about action.

In the new generation even the FP-7F has escapement, so really the only question is "PHA III Ivory Feel with Escapement" versus "PHA III Ivory Feel-S with Escapement". And in their description, Roland is strongly implying that the difference is only in the key surface; I think it's safe to assume the actions are the same.

Originally Posted by JFP
To come back to the PHAIII / PHAIII-S topic; I think it's typical of these times for manufacturers to be fuzzy in the communication of technical specifications. No matter if it's about TV's , cars, digital instruments or even software - they're excellent in creating their own unique- , non-existing terminology for many features of the products which makes it hard to compare specs with the competition, simultaneously creates a reality distortion field for the customers and furthermore they are champions in leaving out a lot of (critical) information.

Amen to that!

Originally Posted by JFP
I'm sure keybeds sharing the same name will have a similar basic design, but their exact implementation may still vary between different instruments and price ranges.

I'm not sure about that: the manufacturers also want to keep the number of spare parts down, so it wouldn't make a lot of sense for them to covertly use a dozen different implementations.

#1510290 - 09/06/10 06:08 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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From brochure:

"Unfortunately the subtleties of piano can easily get lost in loud band mixes, but with Sound Focus you can inject stunning presence into the instrument, even in band settings, without sacrifi cing dynamics and sound quality."

If they're talking about presence, maybe it's also about EQ'ing sound to make it fit better in the mix? But honestly I'm almost sure that this is kind of low level compressor, but it doesn't compress output sound, only signals you send from the keyboard to the sound module, if they are too quiet; so you have louder quiet notes, but it doesn't compress loud notes.


Other thing: new 700NX doesn't have an arpeggiator, but I doubt anyone noticed it. Mainly because pros doesn't use it, but also they change the way specs look on purpose, so you have dig in a little to notice very small difference between GXF and NX.


Roland FP-4
#1510385 - 09/06/10 08:20 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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yes there are little discrepancies between the GX/F and the NX. I also noticed this

NX:
Multi-Effects: 2 x 4 systems, 84 types
Reverb: 6 types
Chorus: 3 types
3-band Compressor
4-band Digital Equalizer

GX/F:
Multi-Effects: 2 x 4 systems, 124 types,
Reverb: 6 types,
Chorus: 3 types,
Sound Control: 3-band Compressor
4-band Digital Equalizer

Nearly identical exact for the fact that the GX/F has 40 more effect types! It seems to me that Roland has decided to rehash "older" products and streamline them. Hence the exclusion of any expansion capability, streamlined effects, and the same 242 rompler-age sounds included. The RD series has just experienced this "deja vu" type marketing and remember the VR-760? The VR-700 (V-Combo) is supposed to be the "newer" board, but it actually has less features! I believe that if you have a GX/F stick with it and if you don't.... get an NX, because Roland has clearly stated that this is it for awhile. So in a way that's cool because I particularly like the SN pianos and the SN EPs (with my extensive tweaking) has grown on me somewhat. I have been throwing around the idea of considering an NX, but I just have a problem with using an improved action and larger screen to justify tossing my GX/F and getting an NX. eek

Overall what they excluded from the NX, they replaced it with a better action and "that not mentioned at all in the product description", audio recorder frown I definitely would call it a solid buy (not for me, of course wink ) and a very heavy contender in the stage piano department. cool

#1510388 - 09/06/10 08:23 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Rhodie73]  
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Originally Posted by Rhodie73
I believe that if you have a GX/F stick with it and if you don't.... get an NX, because Roland has clearly stated that this is it for awhile.


Where has Roland "clearly stated" this? Thanks.

#1510430 - 09/06/10 09:39 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Melodialworks Music]  
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Originally Posted by Melodialworks Music
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
I believe that if you have a GX/F stick with it and if you don't.... get an NX, because Roland has clearly stated that this is it for awhile.


Where has Roland "clearly stated" this? Thanks.


Obviously Roland didn't state that, but I'll just clarify what I mean. When Roland introduced the SuperNatural technology in 2008 they were slowly releasing it to the public in various products with the "original" RD700GX being one of them. It seems they were testing the market to see how the SN tech would be taken by the public. Then when Yamaha updated their CP lines with a "special" technique for creating AP's and EP's, Roland figured that if they wanted to stay in the race they better "upgrade" the GX withe SN expansion board or RD700GXF to show they too have a "special" technique for AP's......because they already displayed it for the EP's with the built in ARX-02 board. When Roland introduced the GX in 2008 they could have done this already, but there was no real pressure from other manufacturers because they were still using the same old sample and velocity level technique. So there it was the, the RD700GXF with SN AP's and SN EP's, however it was already 2 years since their last MAJOR stage piano upgrade (RD700SX to the RD700GX). Therefore, they released the NX with a couple of physical upgrade and EXCLUSIONS (not in sound technology, though) and now we have the current Roland stage piano for probably another 2 years.

Thats what I mean by "clearly stated". The NX is using the same shell and same technology because it is ultimately an original GX plus the SN AP board built in. I'm just getting down to the nitty gritty. Roland is saying that for their flagship digital stage pianos, this is it for awhile. cool

#1510853 - 09/07/10 02:48 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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I understand your interpretation of Roland's activities but I'm not sure I agree. Your assumption that they have sat on SN for acoustic piano sounds until a competitor found another technology is just that; an assumption. I personally disagree. Information has been posted on here about the evolution of the SN technology, which has been in the pipeline essentially since 1986.

I am also of the opinion that the Yamaha SCM system is much more about marketing jargon than new technology...the results achievable with SCM - so far seen in the new CP series - are no better than with a decent conventional sample playback hardware DP. SN on the other hand moves the game along very considerably.

I don't see any reason to suppose that the RD700 NX will be "it" for a while for Roland; the physical form is ageing and the RD700 tag will soon be ripe for replacement.

Just my opinion.

Steve

#1510928 - 09/07/10 05:09 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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The Roland briefing to dealers in the Benelux indicated that both the NX and FP7F will be around in their current incarnation for at least two years.

#1510945 - 09/07/10 05:27 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: theJourney]  
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Originally Posted by theJourney
The Roland briefing to dealers in the Benelux indicated that both the NX and FP7F will be around in their current incarnation for at least two years.

That sounds reasonable to me. They worked on both sufficiently to hold them a couple of years.

#1511051 - 09/07/10 07:40 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Rhodie73]  
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Originally Posted by Rhodie73
NX:
Multi-Effects: 2 x 4 systems, 84 types
...
GX/F:
Multi-Effects: 2 x 4 systems, 124 types,

I wonder if they got rid of the other non-SN AP voices? If so, perhaps they were then able to move the AP-centric in-line effects over to the SN piano designer?

100% wishful thinking.

#1511120 - 09/07/10 09:01 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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Is anyone else more interested in a V-Piano light than the NX? In form factor, weight, and price? I think I am...or perhaps some more economical hybrid of the GXF and the V-Piano.

Last edited by dje31; 09/07/10 09:02 PM.

Yamaha CP33 | Roland XP-30
#1511207 - 09/08/10 12:21 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: theJourney]  
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Originally Posted by theJourney
The Roland briefing to dealers in the Benelux indicated that both the NX and FP7F will be around in their current incarnation for at least two years.


That's exactly what I was thinking. Thank's for backing me up on my hunch! cool

#1511217 - 09/08/10 01:07 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Rhodie73]  
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Quote
When Roland introduced the SuperNatural technology in 2008 they were slowly releasing it to the public in various products with the "original" RD700GX being one of them. It seems they were testing the market to see how the SN tech would be taken by the public.


No, I don't think it worked that way. SN technology has been around for more than 10 years. Roland first applied it to drums and then I think brass instruments and then later to electric pianos and most recently to acoustic pianos. So this has been in the works for a long time. I think they applied it where the payoff would be best first.

A lot of this is also driven by the price of small computers. This is why everyone has about the same advances at about the same time. Most companies could make MUCH better digital pianos or much better software pianos if faster computers were available at the consumer price point.

#1511220 - 09/08/10 01:19 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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Apart from the Keyboard and screen the NX actually offers LESS then the RD700GXF (it sound the same to my ears ... the keyboard and screen is nicer though).

No Arpeggios
Less SN voices
Less effects

Roland must think less = more ?


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
#1511233 - 09/08/10 02:13 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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Quote
Roland must think less = more ?


They're not the only ones. wink

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#1511290 - 09/08/10 06:40 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Dr Popper]  
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Originally Posted by Dr Popper
No Arpeggios
Less SN voices
Less effects

Are there really fewer SN basic voices, or just fewer patches?

Why in the world would they yank out the arpeggiator?

I'm curious Dr Popper, have you had the opportunity to play an NX yet? I know you get to see a lot of equipment around their press release dates.

#1511353 - 09/08/10 09:05 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: ChrisA]  
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Originally Posted by ChrisA
Quote
When Roland introduced the SuperNatural technology in 2008 they were slowly releasing it to the public in various products with the "original" RD700GX being one of them. It seems they were testing the market to see how the SN tech would be taken by the public.


No, I don't think it worked that way. SN technology has been around for more than 10 years. Roland first applied it to drums and then I think brass instruments and then later to electric pianos and most recently to acoustic pianos. So this has been in the works for a long time. I think they applied it where the payoff would be best first.

A lot of this is also driven by the price of small computers. This is why everyone has about the same advances at about the same time. Most companies could make MUCH better digital pianos or much better software pianos if faster computers were available at the consumer price point.


Actually SuperNatural technology is a derivative of Roland's SA synthesis and that was developed over 20 years ago. I'm talking about when they started to release SuperNatural technolgy to the masses and that was in 2008. They created a drum board and electric piano board (ARX-01, ARX-02 respectively). Eventually they created the ARX-03 Brass board and that board was integrated with Roland's VP770 Vocal and Ensemble keyboard, in the same manner that the RD700GX had the ARX-02 integrated. However, the RD700GX was one of the FIRST mass produced instruments from Roland that showcased the SuperNatural technology in its completed form. Yes the Fantom G also had SuperNatural capabilities but not as part of the instrument itself. It was through expansion that you could access SuperNatural technology. Even though the RD700GX ultimately had an ARX-02 on board it was integrated as part of the board itself and not as a user expansion option.

#1511603 - 09/08/10 04:30 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Rhodie73]  
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Pardon my newb-ness, but is the SRX SuperNatural piano expansion card compatible on an RD-700SX? Does my antique board have the horsepower to drive it? Is it even backward compatible? Anyone experienced this firsthand?

Last edited by dje31; 09/08/10 04:37 PM.

Yamaha CP33 | Roland XP-30
#1511672 - 09/08/10 06:32 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dje31]  
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Sorry dje31 the RD700GX-1 SuperNatural Piano board is only compatible with the GX.

#1511863 - 09/08/10 10:57 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Dr Popper
No Arpeggios
Less SN voices
Less effects

Are there really fewer SN basic voices, or just fewer patches?

Why in the world would they yank out the arpeggiator?

I'm curious Dr Popper, have you had the opportunity to play an NX yet? I know you get to see a lot of equipment around their press release dates.


Yeah I had a brief bash with it at Roland in Japan a few weeks ago. I must admit it really did sound like a GXF to me. I couldn't tell the difference except for the screen. I was there to look at something else so I didn't spend more then 5 mins with it. Key's felt good... great actually. Sound design button seemed like a compressor to me too as I recall. One thing I can tell you is that the new Roland stereo keyboard amp they had it hooked too was about 1000% better then any other Roland amp I've heard which wouldn't be hard I admit. Untweaked the Ep's arn't up to CP1/5 standard but the interface is familiar and the new screen looks good. I'm not a huge nitpicker so I'll give it a high pass.. but I didn't know then about the lack of voices, effects and arpeggios. If that's true I'd advise people to buy the GXF instead. The new keys and screen don't make up for those. I'd need a few hours to make a proper assessment and that's not going to happen until I get away from this current horror movie that is masquerading as a gig that I'm involved with.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
#1511886 - 09/08/10 11:47 PM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Dr Popper]  
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Thanks for the feedback Dr P!

#1511915 - 09/09/10 12:37 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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Yep, thanks for these tasty insights Dr Popper.

By the way, did you come to Hamamatsu (well, Miyakoda specifically...) to try the new Rolands?

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#1511922 - 09/09/10 12:53 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: Kawai James]  
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It wasn't in Toyko it was about 2 hours south on the way towards Osaka close to Yamaha actually. I saw them both that day. We went on down to Osaka afterward.


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
#1511930 - 09/09/10 01:18 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
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Dr Popper, yes, that's Hamamatsu. wink

Cheers,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#1511933 - 09/09/10 01:22 AM Re: THE RD-700NX Thread! [Re: dewster]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 131
bsl100 Offline
Full Member
bsl100  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 131
With regard to the PHAIII and PHAIII-S, I'd written to Roland to get a feedback and this is their reply:

"PHA-3 is the two piece action from the V-Piano® and PHA-3S is the new one piece composite material action for the FP-series.
FP-7F has no arranger style but does have session partner, which are styles that you can program chord progressions."

Comparing the brochures of the FP-7F and HP-307:

FP-7F: The FP-7F features Roland’s newly developed PHA III Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with Escapement. With the same progressive hammer action and escapement as the top-line PHA III, it offers unmatched expression and performance authenticity, capable of transforming the most subtle finger nuances into sound. It also provides incredibly fast key-repetition action.....
The surface of each white key replicates the unique appearance and comfortable feel of real ivory keys. The keys are constructed of a one-piece proprietary material that provides excellent moisture absorbency and a premium all white appearance around the tops and sides of the keys.

HP-307: The "PHA III" keyboard translates into sound the differences in how you play. The HP307 comes with the "PHA III" keyboard, which delivers superior repetition and expressivity than the "PHA II" keyboard. Along with the "SuperNATURAL Piano sound engine," subtle differences in how one plays are faithfully reflected in the sound.....
The Ivory-Feel keyboard replicates the texture of ivory and ebony. Modeled after high-end acoustic grand pianos, the white and black key tops are made of a material that replicates the unique appearance and texture of real ivory and ebony keys. The white keys consist of a two piece "surface over base material" construction to create the same appearance you would find on an acoustic piano and reduce the noise of
fingernails tapping the keys. Thanks to its moisture-absorbing characteristics, the more you play the Ivory-Feel keyboard, the better it feels.

From the above, it seems the ACTION is the same. The difference seems to be in the IVORY FEEL part. The Deluxe version has BOTH White and Black keys coated and also the White keys have a TWO piece construction. The S version has only the White keys coated and has a ONE piece construction.

Also note that they write both as PHAIII. The difference is when they write the Ivory Feel part in a box. Its either Ivory Feel or Ivory Feel S.

Brian


Last edited by bsl100; 09/09/10 01:33 AM.
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