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****RRRRRIIIINGG! Okay, there's the bell, guys, so back to your corners, before we have Constance so sick of this controversy she goes out and buys one of those Costco pianos.

I think both sides have made some perceptive comments, mingled in with perhaps a few intemperate comments. And I think there is closer agreement than the past couple of exchanges would imply: EVERYBODY agrees there is no legal obligation for the dealer to take the piano back; EVERYBODY agrees that it may nonetheless be in the dealer's best interest to work out a compromise with Constance; EVERYBODY agrees that such a return will involve some amount of loss to the dealer, a loss that should be compensated by Constance. The part that's not clear is how much this loss is.

I will say that I am glad to have read all of this. It was very easy to say right away, "why just return the piano, of course!," but as this thread evolved, I came to realize that it just isn't as easy as that.

It seems to me that a lot of this could have been avoided if Constance, or any high-end piano shopper, had negotiated a trial period in the home in advance, so as to avoid officially "selling" the piano and therefore requiring it to be sold as used if returned. Steve outlines clearly the downside to the dealer of such a trial period, and again there should be some accommodation on the part of the customer to make it worth the dealer's while, e.g., paying a sufficient rental fee (including delivery charges) or agreeing to a higher purchase price.

And, of course, an even easier solution may be for all piano shoppers to leave their checkbooks at home when they shop, and adopt a rule of "I'm not buying unless I've played it on at least two different days and love it both times."

Steve,

Perhaps you're a very special dealer. It's interesting how upset you are at my statements, feeling that I've attacked you personally.

You're getting deeper into specific character attacks; me. It's so hard to rebutt not doing the same, so I am guilty of it too.

I've mentioned in a post before, if you're not guilty of these things, why are so you upset? It sounds like that if a news report on the 6 o'clock news reports that a gang of thieves was captured on camera and they were hispanic, then another hispanic person got upset and say, "How dare they accuse me of being a thief!!" Well this is no different than your reaction, when I make claims that some piano dealers do cook their books to make it so they don't show profit, and you react to me in much similar way as that innocent hispanic.

The interesting thing about it is that you, out of your own mouth have posted here in the past that you work your expenses to show no profits at the end of the year. Is that my imagination? If so, I apologise, if not, then are you denying it?

Are you saying that none of the numerous dealers in the piano industry have ever cooked their books? Do you think you expect me to believe that you are only making 3% profit?

You mentioned that you audited their operations, man, operations are very different then accounting.

Plus, did you work on behalf of the IRS and audited according to their rules of law?

Yes, of course it's from NAMM, but how did NAMM get their numbers? From the dealers, my friend. My goodness, and you claim that you know what you're talking about.

Why do you think the FDA has problems with drugs that now proved to be dangerous? It's because the studies and reports were mostly done by the drug companies themselves. Is is any surprise the drug companies supports themselves?

You mentioned that you're willing to open up your books providing that it's kept confidential. Why? You made statements that the industry only earns 3%, so what secrets do you need to keep? Public company's books are opened.

Like I said, you and I will never agree, and it sounds like that posts a problem with you, therefore your statement, "You won't last long here". Sounds like you're not happy with someone that's pro-consumer, and would prefer that I am eliminated. If you're strong Steve, you don't need to eliminate your opponents. The stronger are your opponents, the stronger you will become, if you do it right.

You accuse me of generalization, when I've never once, not once, ever said to include ALL dealers, yet, it's you that have taken it to be all dealers. And unless you stop burying your head and make claims that all piano dealers are innocent and good, then you won't ever grow as a dealer.

I am amazed to think that you're defending all dealerships to never be at all dishonest in anyways, including cooking the books. Now that's ignorance. Man, you should know better than that.

Somewhere on this forum are members who are know someone in the piano industry that misrepresented something, and for you to say that they're honest because you've audited their operations, and unless you've audited all the books (books, not operations)of all the dealers, well, it goes to show you're most definitely pro-dealer.

Anyways, this can go on and on, and it won't go anywhere.

Lets agree to disagree and still be friends, aye?

P.S. Subject to audit doesn't mean they're audited. We're all subject to audit. You know that audits are not welcomed in society, only neccesary by the government. Plus, we're all subject to get filthy rich, to get the American dream, because this is a free country, right? But most of us are not. There is a BIG difference.

Paul,

No I didn't mean 3% on each piano. Therefore, am I still ignorant? I understand gross profit and net profit, it was taught in my first semester and in any first semester of any accounting school of repute.

Look, show us just how very special industry you are in that's so different than all the industry in the world combined. You're a retailer, nothing more my friend. It will take an accountant less then 1 hour to read the books and understand the financial profit and loss of your store, or Steve's or any other. Unless your store has hundreds of employees and are worth hundreds of millions or into the billions, you're just a mom and pop industry. And most, if not all piano dealers are nothing more than moms and pops. But you make it sound like you're elite and special and untouchable and know the secrets of the universe better than the rest of us.

I did monthly reports for a financial company that has figures over a billion, bigger company that moms and pops by a wide margin.

Financial reports are nothing more than variations on the same theme. The piano industry is NOT and original composition, an island unto itself in world of retailing. But you and Steve sure makes it sound like so.

Not wanting to get you involved in a spirited discussion between pro-dealer and pro-consumer, but it's obvious why you're on Steve's side; you're in the industry.

Will dracula succeed in convincing anybody here on this forum that he doesn't need blood?. (Paul, I'm NOT implying that you're dracula.) So, will a dealer here succeed in convincing anybody here on this forum that he is pro-consumer?

Enough said.

Monica,

Thank you for your post. Because I see that you actually read it.

Steve thinks the earlier post didn't indicate that I am not totally ignorant of the dealer's unfavorable situation were Constance just to return it without any recourse of some sort, perhaps a bill for something or other, which I indicated.

After all, I am here only for the purpose of helping Constance, which I also indicated wasn't all innocent with her poor and hurried buying decision, which she fully admits. So, it's not a bash to Constance. (OK, Constance?)

Anyways, thanks for the bell, it was a bit more heated than intended.

Wow. It looks like I opened up a can of worms... It's good to see both sides of the issue.

I'm still thinking this over. I have three choices: try to get a refund, which I gather is bound to be partial; try to get an exchange; or hang onto the Schimmel.

I don't think it's a great idea for me to try to get a refund. I donated my other piano, and do not have another one lined up to buy. So, I would lose money and be left without a piano.

I don't know that I would be much happier with any other piano from that store. So it probably doesn't make sense to go through everything I would have to go through to do an exchange.

Today I went to play some Mason & Hamlins (something I'd been planning to do before buying a piano). I loved them -- maybe the "American" sound is for me. Naturally I can't afford one, but... I could keep the Schimmel for now (I do not hate it, although it is definitely not The One), and see it as one more step toward owning that perfect piano. In a year, or two (or more!), I could look at finances again and see if it would be possible to sell the Schimmel and buy the piano I really want.

I got myself into this situation, and now I will deal with it. I have certainly learned a lot from what happened. I have more or less decided not to become someone's headache over this, but-- respectfully to all you dealers out there-- maybe you can learn from this situation too!

Thank you all once again for all your thoughts, concerns, and encouragement. It has helped so much.

-Constance

1st, we are not friends. Nor would I be interested in befriending anyone who distorted the facts so systematically. Nor one who cleverly spun his writing to connote and slur. To be clear as to what I refer to, I quote you [in “ “]:

“I've mentioned in a post before, if you're not guilty of these things, why are so you upset? It sounds like that if a news report on the 6 o'clock news reports that a gang of thieves was captured on camera and they were hispanic, then another hispanic person got upset and say, "How dare they accuse me of being a thief!!" Well this is no different than your reaction, when I make claims that some piano dealers do cook their books to make it so they don't show profit, and you react to me in much similar way as that innocent hispanic.”

As everyone here knows I usually don’t talk about my operation, but about the piano industry. You have made broad statements about an industry I am proud to be in and have been proud to be in all my life. I often have, and will continue to present a balanced view despite clowns like you who slur the industry with innuendo (like the “big fat commission and profit”, “won the sale…jackpoted” remarks among others).

“The interesting thing about it is that you, out of your own mouth have posted here in the past that you work your expenses to show no profits at the end of the year. Is that my imagination? If so, I apologise, if not, then are you denying it?”

Either post my quote or apologize.

“Are you saying that none of the numerous dealers in the piano industry have ever cooked their books?” And,

“I am amazed to think that you're defending all dealerships to never be at all dishonest in anyways, including cooking the books. Now that's ignorance. Man, you should know better than that.”

No, and I never said nor implied that. Every industry has those who operate outside the norms. This is a total, obvious and intentional distortion of my position.

“Do you think you expect me to believe that you are only making 3% profit?”

Yes. I am saying that, as an average, after taxes Net Profit After Taxes was about 3%. And I offer proof. If you have FACTS to dispute that, post them. The fact that you would choose not to believe it doesn’t change the facts.

“Yes, of course it's from NAMM, but how did NAMM get their numbers? From the dealers my friend. My goodness, and you claim that you know what you're talking about.”

NAMM is one of the most respect industry trade organizations in the US. Those who have deep knowledge of the basis for their industry statistics respect their accuracy. They are calculated so that dealers can accurately compare their operations with others in similar circumstances. Inflated or “cooked” figures would negate their value. Your statement slurs NAMM and again, I do not make friends with those who spin your kind of crap. And, yes, unlike you, I DO know what I am talking about.

“Sounds like you're not happy with someone that's pro-consumer, and would prefer that I am eliminated. If you're strong Steve, you don't need to eliminate your opponents. The stronger are your opponents, the stronger you will become, if you do it right. “

I’m not happy with someone who distorts the facts about our industry and is sanctimonious about it! Stop doing that you’ll be welcome here.

“Somewhere on this forum are members who are know someone in the piano industry that misrepresented something, and for you to say that they're honest because you've audited their operations, and unless you've audited all the books (books, not operations) of all the dealers, well, it goes to show you're most definitely pro-dealer.”

I typically examine their Financial Statements and their operations. And for over 10 years I taught small business management at our local community college, including how to understand and use accurate Financial Statements. Also, I DO present dealer perspectives here, but with balance, seeking a win-win outcome.


"You mentioned that you're willing to open up your books providing that it's kept confidential. Why? You made statements that the industry only earns 3%, so what secrets do you need to keep? Public company's books are opened."

Again, you show your distortions. No small businessman in a competetive marketplace would open their books to their competetors. You KNOW this, yet you still made this comment. I see how you react when someone calls your bluff.

“Lets agree to disagree and still be friends, aye?”

No, let’s not. At least not yet.

Now, get out of the way and let us help Constance and her dealer to optimize the solution.

I see more and more that I am a real threat to you, don't I? So, until I behave to protect your interest, then, only then will you accept me in this forum.

Man, I am not welcomed here? By you? Do you have the right not to welcome me here because I tend to be pro-consumer?

You distorted my statements about NAMM. Yes, of course NAMM is respected. NAMM gets their statistics figures from people like you, the dealers. The government gets their figures from the businesses. But it the businesses doesn't report accurately, then the figures are not accurate. It doesn't reflect on the institution as not being accurate.

NAMM gathers data from the industry's reporting to them. They do not collect and process data from individual store's IRS tax return. They exercise good faith that the reports they receive is accurate. They don't care about the "illegal tax shelters" each dishonest store hides under, which the Feds are currently busting one at a time, which I'm sure they'd be interested to see the tax shelters that your store may be exposed to. If you're innocent in this, then there is not need to get upset. Like I said before, if you're not guilty of being the actual thief, why grief about it?

FDA, they didn't know the reports presented to them are not accurate, therefore, they give approvals of drugs based on the reports and studies. Am I now slamming the FDA? Perhaps I should.

Darn FDA, who doesn't know how to protect us from dangerous drugs, causing deaths left, right and center, or at least a maimed life thanks to the drugs that left people's lives changed for the worse. I can't believe that 3 common drugs last year had hidden dangers that we're no aware of. How dare you approve phen-fen when it turned out to be a suicide pill..........etc, etc. What else have you passed that we're not aware of it being dangerous? You are killing us out of the power of these drug companies that finance your office, which is a conflict of interest to the detriment of the public at large, etc, etc, etc.

There, I just slammed FDA.

Can you see the difference of my words of FDA that, as you called it inflammatory, and slurs to NAMM and the piano industry.

It's obvious that you love your dealership and selling pianos, that's because there is a gain from it. Believe me, you'd be out a long time ago if you're only earning 3%. By your own admission that dealers gives themselves nice bonuses so the store won't show as much profits. Are you the only one that does that?

It looks like you don't audit the companies you "monitor", because examining the financial statements is NOT auditing. Somehow you sounded very heroic when you stated in a prior post that you audited piano stores. Man you got me scared there and thought may be you did know what you're talking about. It appears that exaggerations are your motto.

Now, I have to find that statement again. Here is something that you recently made, July 16, 2005.

"It is true that often the owner can take bonuses to minimize their tax liabilities, but they should rightfully earn income from their investment."

You got me with the quote about showing profits as nil. I can't find it, and searching your many posts would take a very long time. But I will search it. In the meantime, because I can't prove it yet, I will apologise.

"Again, you show your distortions. No small businessman in a competetive marketplace would open their books to their competetors. You KNOW this, yet you still made this comment. I see how you react when someone calls your bluff".

I think I caught your bluff, Steve. You have never intended to open your books, excuses of competitive markets, oh, C'mon, are you more competitive than Dell, Compaq & HP? Are you more competitive than GM and Ford? Are you bigger and more powerful then MCI and ATT? Do you want me to continue? What about Delta and Southwest? 20th Century Fox and Sony? I can go on and on.

These companies have their books opened, but they're a lot more powerful and competitive than the moms and pops piano dealers. They have a LOT more at stake. They don't use your excuse of "competitive marketplace" as a reason not to open their books. EVERYTHING is out in the open when it comes to their financial balance. Including how much the CEO earned. How about you, will you at least reveal how much you earned last year? Hmmmm, I suspect that you won't and create some sorts of excuse for it.

Anyways, this is getting long and tiring. It's no use to on keep going, because you and I will continue to disagree, that you're pro-dealer, which I appreciate you finally admitted, and I am pro-consumer, which I freely and openly admit.

In the beginning, I wasn't dealer bashing, but it turned out to be, that, if there is a defense made, it must be because an attack was perceived. If one is not guilty, why would they try to defend themselves, such as you?

I accept all the dealers here will hate my guts. Because I am not pro-dealer, so what do I expect?

Regardless, whether you and I agree or not, which we don't, I still regard you as a human being that I can respect nonetheless. I am not your enemy, nor any dealer's enemy.

I do know that, because I have been defrauded by a piano dealer in a major way, where consumer protection got involved, and now a legal battle is being armed, into the tens of thousands, then if I were to be able to help one more person from being defrauded, then it's worth it.

Don't go into tangents now that I am accusing you of defrauding your customers. Because there has been so much twisted interpretations of my comments since my second post on this topic.

Read Monica's post about the meaning and interpretation of that second post of mine. She understood it very clearly.

Whereas you and I, Steve, will NEVER see eye to eye. You can call me all you want to quench your anger. I've tried on this post to not attack your character, and I may have failed, even miserably. If you should continue your character attack as you had, and have others join you, the more power to you and others, and rather then continue to defend, I just say, alright, you know what you're talking about, and I don't and just finish at that.

Yes, I'll get out of your way, since I'm obviously in the way of your "3%" profits. (Not including bonuses).

You win. OK?

Too much time wasted arguing here, and I'm tired of wasting more time.

Constance, good luck with your piano situation. May you work things out and find a piano that you're going to enjoy for a very long time. Which is after all, what I'd wish for you.

Constance, I'd at least talk to the dealer so that you can keep your options open. Why not go back and play the Nicklaus Schimmel special edition 6'3 again to see if it IS the one and see what it would cost to do an exchange. As someone suggested here, maybe working out a payment plan would make it work for you.

PS: I did a lot of side by side comparisons of Schimmels and Estonias, and liked the Schimmels much better. My experience was much like yours - I couldn't afford the new Schimmel I wanted, and I thought long and hard about an Estonia but it just didn't do it for me. Granted, this is all very subjective.

Shades of Joe McCarthy!

The competition I am concerned with is Jordan-Kitts Music, Rick Jones Pianos, Buddy Parker's fine operation. Therein lies a basic flaw to your thinking. You think the piano industry is like the FDA, HP, MCI, GM, Ford...that your analogies are, well...analogies. They are not.

You are ignorant of the facts. The more you rant the worse it gets.

My offer still stands. And NAMMs figures are very representative.

Steve,

You had won!!!

Rejoice in your victory, instead of kicking a man when he is down.

Aren't you also tired?

Yes. Goodnight.

Constance:

You won’t like it, but I have to say it: I am almost totally unsympathetic to your situation.

There has been much discussion here about what a dealer should or should not do to make you less unhappy, but I suggest that you, too, had a responsibility: to be an informed consumer, to the extent possible, and then to buy or not buy on that basis.

You say that you are not pleased with the sound of your piano, and in fact had "even tried Schimmels in the past and not been overwhelmed with the sound." You weren’t planning to buy a piano that day, but were "talked into the purchase by a very skilled salesperson." You somehow found yourself signing on the dotted line. You "want and need" singing overtones, but you bought a piano that didn’t have them.

No salesman, no matter how skillful, can manipulate a pen so that it produces your signature.

The quotes above were from your first post. In response to other posts, you seem to show a reluctance to settle for anything reasonable; for example, with respect to an exchange, you say that you're not sure that any other piano from that dealership would suit you.

I think that as adults we have to live with the consequences of our actions, and I think that you should look at your actions, not those of the dealer or of the skilled salesperson, and live with yours.

Mahler's and Steve's posts are a useless tangent in this thread. Gentlemen, please confine your conflict to private messages. Each of you feels aggrieved and each of you feels the need to respond. Each response carries us further from the point of this discussion. Fortunately, this has been a one-on-one duel, unlike some other threads which degenerate into multiple-car pileups.

Axtremus,

Might I ask that the brawl here be removed from the thread? No one has cursed or thrown mud at someone's parents ...yet, but the point-counterpoint about dealer profit, and pro-consumer vs pro-dealer is quite irrelant to Constance or to anyone else here.

David F

I think she's recognized that NA. But, still, with a purchase of this magnitude, both she and the dealer have an interest in seeing to her being a happy consumer in the end.

Steve and Mahler, cut the feud. We all know where you both stand. Pretty please. Sometimes letting the other one have the last word makes yours all the more poignant.

Piano Dad,

I appreciate that it may not be revelant to you, but Constance has indicated, "It's good to see both sides of the issue".

Do you speak for Constance as to whether it's revelant to her or not? Plus, do you speak for all the thousands of members on this forum of the same?

Why are you so closed minded that there are others who may benefit from learning both sides of a point of view, since this forum is not for your taste of topic preference only.

Furthermore, the argument had closed anyway.

Mahler,

Perhaps you don't recognize the extreme tact that Constance employed

David F

David,

You know, I have to apologise to you and everybody else here if I have offended them. Since last year, when I had problems with a local Yamaha dealer, where fraud was committed, I have a bad after taste. It has caused much anger that they can be so brazen to lie and defraud. Don't want to get into the details, but how would you like to be sold a used piano which the owner said was brand new? Then admitted to consumer protection,"I didn't know it was used".

Right now, we're preparing a major legal lawsuit, which will be at least $50,000 of money on the table. If they want to fight it, then so be it, I have a strong evidence, a recorded conversation of the fraud. Lets see how they'd defend that.

Ever since then, any tone of pro-dealership gets my nerves going.

Mahler,

Thanks. Everyone says things that in hindsight they wish they hadn't. Not everyone admits to it!

I'm on the consumer side of the market just like you. I have run into dealers who I immediately understood were using tactics I deplore. On the other hand I have spent a fair amount of time with dealers who were both knowledgeable and considerate. The human condition presents many aspects.

I think Monica summed up the situation Constance faces quite well. Now we wait to see how things develop.

Best,

David F

I agree with kathyk, at the very least have a talk with the dealer.

I am sure you have a very nice piano and this sounds a little like buyer remorse but there is no reason you should not feel comfortable with the purchase. Both you and the dealer should walk away from the deal happy.

Until Monday when you can call, spend some time playing and get to know this piano a little better. Gosh, I wish I had a new 6' Schimmel!